CCB: [00:00:01] Welcome to the ONEder Podcast. This is your host CCB, and this is the beginning of a trio of some pretty interesting conversations that we'll be having with our 2024 ONEder Grant Award winners. To give you a little tiny background on the ONEder Grant. Since 2019, we at One Workplace have given out 24 different wonder grants to a number of design firms across California and the state of Washington to really do some what's the word I want to say? New, evolving, kind of fascinating research into how design influences the human experience. We ask folks to submit proposals and they're vetted by a jury, if you will, of one workplace and industry experts exploring how the impact of design on environments that shape us. And this year it's been curious to see the different topics that came in. And we awarded three grants. So our conversation today is with two folks who are award winners, Claudia Saunders and Stacey Krumbacher from Mahlum. And first, I'm going to ask Claudia, introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about why you are working with Mahlum and what your interest is in this particular project that you're going to tell us about.

Claudia Saunders: [00:01:30] Yeah. So Claudia Saunders with Mahlum architects, I've been with Mahlum for about six years, and part of the reason I chose this practice is because we do public service, especially in education space and education design, which has always been an interest to me. I think many designers have chosen this path I did because I feel like somehow I'm going to change the world and make it better than the one that I was born into, and education spaces are one of those areas where we really have the opportunity for profound impact. This particular grant and why we were excited about this, was it focused not just on education, but at that middle school level, which we have seen is really a little bit forgotten as far as its specificity for how we can support that age group. And so while we at Mahlum do design school environments from early early education all the way up into university space, we did acknowledge that this was a space where not just us, but in general, designers can better support those middle aged learners.

CCB: [00:02:35] Fantastic. And Stacey.

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:02:38] Thanks CCB. I'm Stacey Crumbacher with Mahlum. And to broaden a little bit on who Mahlum is to add to what Claudia had offered, we focused on three primary markets. So in addition to the pre-K through 12 that Claudia had mentioned, we also do higher education with an emphasis in residential life as well as community based health care. So we feel at Mahlum it's really important to keep our practice community based and local. We have an office both in Seattle and in Portland, so really consider the Pacific Northwest our home and enjoy and are grounded in our practice.

CCB: [00:03:14] And how long have you been with Mahlum?

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:03:17] I've been with Mahlum about ten years.

CCB: [00:03:20] Well, one of you is going to actually say the title of your grant, and before you do that, I am going to make mention of something that Claudia said, which was paying attention to an audience or a group that potentially gets overlooked. So there's space and then there's the people, and there's a great way that you all walk through the reasoning behind this. So who's going to say what the name of the grant is?

Claudia Saunders: [00:03:52] I got you, boo. All right. Our paper after all of this is called Unlocking Space Potential, and we love subtitles. So the subtitle is Aligning the Power of People, Practice and Place in middle school learning settings. And so while it may be a little bit wordy with that subtitle, we do think it helps summarize one of the big discoveries that we went through in this process that there is a need to align people, practices and place to unlock the potential specifically for these middle school learning environments. So that's the the title there and why we have subtext.

CCB: [00:04:35] So for all of our listeners on our ONEder Grant website, we have the full research paper that was delivered. We also have kind of a one page abstract. If you're interested in a little bit more detail, we'll have links to Mahlum and to Claudia and to Stacey. So if you have any, uh, questions after this conversation and you'd like to follow up, you're going to have ample opportunity to connect with them. So I just want to put that out there. And the second thing that I'll say is when you look at this research, you are going to be mightily impressed. And the reason why I say that is I have a background in research and the amount of study, reference, insight, evaluation that went into it is impressive. I'm going to leave that at that so that we all can hear a little bit more. Um, you chose this particular topic and then how did you we know the process of creating a proposal has you begin the planning process, but when you actually got the award, then what happened?

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:05:51] So it's a great question. And maybe, um, as we first put out the proposal, you could say it was a big, bold idea. And we were reminded by multiple people about how much you could bite off with one with one chew on a research project. And so we were definitely enthusiastic in trying to tackle the problem of, um, middle school buildings right now. Um, and so as we really started to hone in on understanding what the problem was, led us down this rabbit hole of building an understanding of really what is the historical context that has driven school design to where it is today? You know, what are these different inputs that are really leading to this disconnect between how teachers want to teach today, how students need to learn, and then what we as designers are trying to create for them, and really feeling that we keep walking into buildings that aren't serving their communities well. So that's how we kind of first started with this big, ambitious problem and then had to slowly really kind of anchor, like hone in on what was the actual problem we were trying to solve, which led to that enthusiastic list of research that CCB was referencing in the paper. I think it was the I don't know, what did we get up to, like 80 something citations? Claudia.

Claudia Saunders: [00:07:19] Yeah, yeah. And I think even more than that. So originally, before we even submitted and saw this opportunity, we had been invited by one of our school communities to facilitate a workshop around imagining what the future of education could be like. Now, the difference was that community was a high school community, but within that, we were able to see some common sort of feedback or criticisms that we've received as designers around how the space is spaces. Really? The school spaces that a lot of our communities are working in kind of get in the way of how, uh, educational models have changed over time. And we've seen a lot of similar kind of language around being able to put students at the center of their learning, personalizing education, understanding the the future of what learning needs to be like. Um, and so we were invited to facilitate a workshop and through that really started to, um, for us to realize how much legacy in historical planning, um, has really driven what we learn as designers, either through the workplace or in our education in school. Um, and we carry that almost unknowingly into the conversations that we bring into the beginning of designing a new school or massively, you know, renovating an existing school.

Claudia Saunders: [00:08:43] And so that was kind of one of the undercurrents that brought Stacey and I to think about, well, what is actual research? I think that's a term that designers use kind of loosely and flippantly. Oh, we researched something and through this process, I think we learned how rigorous true research actually is and had the benefit of inviting through this grant not just folks from One Workplace, but also from higher education institutions to help kind of guide us through how do we do diligent research? How do we ask questions, and what is it about getting at the core of that problem? So it was a request from a community to help us understand how can we really design spaces better for the future. And then seeing the opportunity of this research grant to understand well what is research so we can bring genuine answers to our communities when they ask us those hard questions. And so it's been it's been a wild ride.

CCB: [00:09:37] I bet. I mean, again, thinking about the many different factors that you assessed. And I want to say if you go through the, there's design, but there's also pedagogy. There's also, uh, adolescent development, there's neuroscience there, there were so many touch points that made me stop and think about how broad and challenging the question is A, and then B from the built environment, the nature of creating new educational institutions or schools, as we would rather call them, the cost attached to that, the community involvement. So it's not, uh, a standard practice because new schools are built, you know, they're intended to last for generations or decades at least. So how do you design the space to support what the change is going to be? I think you did a fantastic job setting up that dilemma for all of us to understand. So I'd love for you to go through a couple of the the learnings that you walked away with that are going to influence how you might consider designing in the future, for the future.

Claudia Saunders: [00:10:58] I'm going to hop in a little bit, and because you said something there CCB about the flexibility that is required when we think about designing school environments and to clarify, the directive that we're given as designers is frequently an enduring building for a 50 year life. And so I just want to make that explicit. We are being asked to think about a flexible, innovative future and being putting that in the confines and the construct of a building that is to last 50 years. But the reason I honed in on when you said flexible is because this is really one of the key insights that Stacey and I came through, um, as we were doing the research. And it is the way that we use language as designers, as educators and as researchers. So flexibility is one of those words that is quite ambiguous. It's really difficult to define and it's really difficult to say, well, this is what a flexible school looks like. And so we were able to identify what we were calling the experience language gap. And that had to do with things like flexibility. But it also had to do with words like experiences and space. It had to do with things like welcoming and belonging. Now, these are probably terms that you've heard a lot, but they're bubbling up. And how it is that we make school more engaging and more relevant for our students. So how do we make a space that is flexible is going to be different depending on the lived experience of who you're asking and who's doing the listening? So one of the things that we really wanted to do, and I think we're starting to to pull together in our spatial toolkit, is to create a way to engage in meaningful conversation with students and with educators and other designers to make sure that we are using the same language in a way that is intentional and clear.

Claudia Saunders: [00:12:47] So we're not assuming that what I think as a designer who has been working in school space says flexible means operable walls, right? But a student may think that flexible means that they can sit on the floor, and a teacher may think that flexible is that everything's on wheels. So let's define what we mean and how that has a clear relationship to the physical world. Because our role as designers now, this is another kind of tangential but very related key insight. Our role as designers is not to tell teachers how to teach. Our job is to give them the spaces so they can facilitate learning. I'm not an educator, I'm a designer. And so recognizing where our expertise is is really, really important. So the toolkit that we were putting together helps educators stand strongly in their expertise as educators Designers stay in their lane as designers and allow students to be empowered to talk about their lived experience, what they're learning, and how their identity and their interests are going to shape what makes them want to learn. Does that answer your question?

CCB: [00:13:59] Yeah, it definitely does. I think that you introduce the conversation, I mean, the notion of the toolkit. And so I'd love for you to spend a little bit more time. You've described the why. Why is it necessary? What about the what. What is it?

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:14:20] We see the toolkit. The toolkit has two kind of key elements to it. The first is qualities, and then the second is objects. And we think about qualities. It's the um the sensory attributes of the setting itself. Right. So there are things like acoustics, like does this space have a boundary to it, you know. How large is this space? And when we think about objects, they're actually the tangible elements within an environment that help to either modify or enhance the level of quality that we've identified. So that might be storage, right? It might be the furniture or those chairs that a student can move so that they can sit on the floor as they're moving through an activity. So these two pieces and really kind of giving clear language around them, help us to build out a way in which we can actually start to close that language and experience gap, because we have very clear levers in which we can talk about whether you're talking from a designer's perspective, an educator's perspective, or a learner's perspective and really understanding what is it that a physical quality offers to a space in order for an activity to occur? For example, we often hear a lot about, oh, well, I need a space for collaboration. And it's like, okay, well, let's define what are the qualities that actually make a good collaborative space. And the number one thing that comes up is often acoustics, right? It's got enough absorption to take the multiple conversations that are happening and allow for a good cause for you to be able to hear at the table, but also not disturb someone that might be in quiet, focused reflection somewhere else. So being able to identify how qualities impact the experience of a learner or an educator as they're in class itself, really helps us to kind of close that gap when we talk about, well, what does a setting need to do in order for a certain learning activity to be successful?

CCB: [00:16:29] One of the questions that came up in my mind on a kind of regular basis as I was reading through this, is that challenge that you've identified that the structure must last for 50 years.

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:16:44] The 50 year building.

CCB: [00:16:46] The 50 year building. Okay. And how do architects and designers continue to add to their, um, in a way, toolkit, but in their perspective, how do you continue to evolve your perspective to shift from what has been to what might be? And you kind of are tackling that in this project.

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:17:13] Maybe to give a little bit of context to the 50 year building. Um, you know, it's something that we're often asked to design to. Right. And it becomes a challenge because we're working with community money. Right. These are taxpayer dollars. The opportunity to build a brand new middle school doesn't come around that often for a community and school district. And so there's this pressure of wanting to feel like you're going to get it right. And not only that, we're also have this this parity pressure that we mentioned in the paper around. Often when you're building a new school, you want to create this wonderful new space that supports these learners. But there's also this parallel pressure of wanting to align with other facilities that district may already have that are comprehensive middle schools in another part of their district. Right. So in some ways, some of these legacy planning patterns can become a bit of an unexpected trap because it's hard to sometimes evolve, let one evolve while not trying to hold tightly to the way it has been, because you want to create an equivalent experience for students across your whole district. And if you look back to education and teacher centric models, this is really the root of the revolutionary idea of the factory model school, right. We're creating consistency across the country so that every student has access to a good school environment where they can have common curriculum. Right. And they have an equal experience, whether they're in this part of the district or that part of the district. And in some ways, this desire for the 50 year building kind of falls into that trap of wanting to feel equal, whether you're in one part or another. And that's part of what holds progress back in some ways, because it's hard to make space for something new when we're constantly kind of comparing ourselves in a mirror to what we have created for the past 50 years. 100 years, right?

CCB: [00:19:20] I love it when I read new words or phrases that I have not heard before, and one of the ones that came up, you just talked about that parity anchor. So thank you very much for describing and defining that a little bit. The other word that came up or phrase that came up was affordance theory. And I'd love for you to spend a little bit of time putting that into context. Why is it important in this work that you've done?

Claudia Saunders: [00:19:45] Yeah. So this is a tricky one. And we're going to try to be clear. So CCB let us know if we don't answer the question. So there's a couple of things. This is one of those those pieces or these ideas that came up as we were starting to explore, how did we get here and why do we keep doing what we've done? So affordance theory really helps us offer language and insights for how the design of both space and objects can influence how and why people interact with both space and objects. So, um, the affordances are all of the possible ways in which an individual could interact with their built environment. And it's rooted not just in the tangible, physical things of a space, but the lived experience of that individual and their broader community. So I think a way that we can try to describe this, you and I are to walk into a space, you know, and somebody says to you and somebody says to me in the exact same room and says, well, I want you to do something creative in this space. And given the fact that you and I have had very different lived experiences, we have different expertise, we have different history, we have different skills. Physically are probably different sizes. Right. And then we walk into a room and we're going to see all the things in the room from that perspective. So what creativity means to me would be different than what it means to you, especially if it's open, right, and what we're physically capable of doing in that space. So affordance theory is going to say that the outcome of whatever is the thing that we are asked to do is going to be different, not just because you and I have a different experience, but because we're going to see the things in the space differently and the possibility of how we could use them differently.

Claudia Saunders: [00:21:45] So this is relevant as we think about schools, because it's linking not just the skills and the abilities of the students and the learners, but also the educators who were in that space. And the designers have now taken a choice. They've made choices as they designed the room. They chose the materials, the size and the scale, the furnishings, all of these things that are the objects that allow you to manipulate space and make something real. These are all going to change, and they're going to send different signals of what you can do and therefore what is appropriate to do in that space. So all of these sort of abstractions, what you see, how you're able to manipulate space, your lived experience and the culture of the world around all of those things are what link together to create this theory. And we see this as an opportunity to say if we can unlock the language of affordances, so the possibility of space, then we will be able to help people who use different words and have had different experience hone in on the same physical cues, those objects and those qualities that Stacey was talking about in the toolkit. In order to have a space that supports creativity or critical thinking or collaboration, or the myriad of other skills that we know students and learners need to be successful not just today, but also in the future.

CCB: [00:23:19] Great job. Actually, great job in that definition. I think anyone who is going through the work that you've done is going to see that true passion for, uh, unraveling a complex issue and bringing some simplicity to it. And I applaud, as do we all the clarity and communications. Well, seriously, we have had this conversation not just in education design across, um, the intention of the words that we use and how much more important they are today for so many reasons, to be very clear that we're talking we're having the same conversation around the same topic. And so that you have been able to articulate both verbally and in your research, what your intentions were and are is excellent work, and I'd love for you to tell us, as a result of all the work that you've done, aside from having so much more knowledge and information, what what impact do you think this will have on your work with your clients and your firm?

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:24:34] I think as you were asking us that question, it sparked a conversation that Claudia and I have had many times. And that's as designers, we're really good at asking questions that we leading to answers that we want to hear. We're really good at asking questions that get us to, oh, we want a light filled space and oh, we want to see the warmth of natural wood on the walls. Right? And so in some ways, the begun to build out this toolkit for us is a way to hold ourselves accountable to truly what we hear from educators and learners when they ask us for environments that can help them learn better together. Right. And so for us that that teasing apart of language and really distinct narratives was to help us actually uncover better What can a setting offer to someone to give that student agency right in creating a space they need, and really build up the competency of the educator in order to have a voice in creating a space that will truly work for them. And so how do we actually, as designers, in some ways, use language to get out of our own way and not ask questions to get the answers we're hoping for, but to really get the answers that are meaningful to educators and learners, to create a space that works for them.

Claudia Saunders: [00:25:58] Yeah, and I think we've had the privilege to start testing this with some of our active school communities. And one of the things that's, I think been really helpful for me, and one that I continue, I hope that I can continue to hone this skill through the toolkit is asking very explicit and very specific questions that are still open, but they're not open in a way that leaves space for very ambiguous language, right? Because that doesn't allow us to solve the problem. It allows us to solve for the thing, like Stacey said, that we want to solve for. And so I think one of the other pieces that was really impactful to me and that I will continue to bring forward, is there is a lot that school communities put out about their hopes and their aspirations for how they can make learning truly engaging for their school communities. It is not our responsibility to say that your your solution must look like this. This particular other solution. Um, and I think it's easy for us to jump to the to the design outcomes, the physical design outcomes that we favor based on our preferences, without really understanding the impact that it has on the kind of learning and the kind of teaching that needs to happen in space. So is the right solution really a big space or a small space. Is it about glass or is it not about glass? Is it about furniture, or is it about fixed things because each one of these has different outcomes. That's where the different roles. If you read the paper, hopefully you will, you'll see that we break down the different kind of spatial roles, and it's understanding how we can manipulate those various things in order to better serve an outcome. And as a designer, we have a responsibility to recognize that our job is to support educators and learners and not push our own aesthetic agendas, because there is a way in which learning can have more efficacy and the space can help that. So we need to learn how to listen. And in order to listen, we need to ask very clear questions.

CCB: [00:28:17] I have one more question for you. And when you were talking about the the different the changes that you'd like to see. One of the phrases is educator spatial competency, and I'd love for you to spend a little bit of time talking about that, because I think that's something that is a challenge to many.

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:28:36] So, you know, educator spatial competency is an idea that an educator actually leans into the space that they have and uses it as a part of their own toolkit when they're actually creating their lesson plan and really kind of targeting how learning will happen within the space that they have, and really building their ability to utilize space in new ways. And it's something that has not, at least commonly in the past, been part of the educators learning process. Right? And so they build out their lesson plan, right. They have a certain layer of understanding of, okay, I have this many desks and I want to group kids together in this way. Um, and building out upon that is how can we actually deepen that understanding? You know, I actually I met with a science teacher just last week, and his level of spatial competency was actually quite high, because imagine you're in a high school science class immediately. In your mind, you probably are picturing a row of lab desks around the perimeter of the classroom with peninsulas sticking out from them. His comment to me is he was like, well, when you put them in the chin strap room, which is what he called it, he's like, they're all facing the wall where the sinks are at and where their counter is.

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:30:03] And so their, um, lab activity is happening facing the wall, and he's like, they can't face each other and therefore they're not collaborating. So the science teacher actually made this observation to me, which is intuitive to my training. Right. Because I think about creating a collaborative space, and I want people to be able to face each other, right? It's rare to find that level of competency. And so part of the goal around the toolkit was to build it out in order to empower educators to actually be able to critically think about how space is getting in the way and these activities and these, um, these ways and modes in which they're trying to build a learning environment for their students. And so how can they actually start to become a partner in either shaping it, advocating to say, you know, I don't want a chinstrap classroom, and this is why. And being able to clearly articulate what that is really offers them the ability to then change how they're shaping their classroom, to really create better experiences for the learners that are within them as they start to think about how they activate them. Right. And really making that another tool in their quiver of, well, what's the lesson plan and how am I going to activate this environment.

Claudia Saunders: [00:31:21] And I think the other part that comes with the spatial competency is that is a transferable skill as pedagogy changes and as curriculum changes. So the 50 year building that we're asked to build, we may not be able to go back and move those walls and change the casework because there's not funding within the community. But if the educator understands how the objects of the built environment can be manipulated to better support the new pedagogy and the new curriculum and the new methods that we're going to come out before the next classroom building is going to be designed, then that gives them the ability to actually make change in a meaningful way when they need to make that change. Um, and so it is a very empowering tool if they're able to say, what I need is chairs that are like this or I don't need chairs at all, what I need is another vertical surface where our students can display their work. What we need is a way to mitigate sound. So can we bring in more? You know, why amplify the voice or whatever it is that they need to do? Technology is changing. That is an object that we can change in our space. So even if we can't change all of the walls, or even if the utilization of the building still needs to be at 90% right, then they have the ability to make those changes because they have that competency not just for themselves, but to facilitate it for the entire group. And that is the other thing that's really important for the teacher competency or the educator spatial competency, is that it's not just for them. It is about the entire community and the entire class that is together, which is different than the student. Right? The responsibility of the student is to be able to advocate for themselves and their needs.

Stacey Crumbaker: [00:33:12] And I think in some ways that's why we layered in the idea of for a learner, their role is actually agency. Right. And so this understanding of how can they have agency in their environment to move to a space that actually supports the learning that they need to experience that day. Right. And what is going to work best for them as individuals? Because that's at least what we see right now with this rise of a learner centric model, is this need to support the individuality of the student and kind of how they can be successful in their learning journey. And I think the parallel to that, right, much like the educator spatial competency, the educator needs to be aware of what the learner needs for agency so they at best understand well, what comfort level do I need in order to support this learner? Right. Because they are still responsible for creating a space where this learner can find success, right? So while the learner has agency within the environment, the teacher is creating that scaffold for them and building that through their spatial competency. Right. And advocating for, you know, my learners need that vertical surface that Claudia was mentioning so that they can see their math visible up on the wall. Right. And so all these pieces do layer together. And I think that leads us back to the three P's. Right. And this idea of how do we actually align people, practice and place in order to really unlock space potential, which is the big vision goal of what we're trying to accomplish, maybe one little research paper at a time.

CCB: [00:34:49] Excellent job wrapping that up and bringing it around to the general principle and hypothesis that you had. And I also would love to underscore that learner centric model, that the nature of that is not specific to the student, it is the learner. And when you think about it, with that perspective, all elements of the creation of that built environment and the use of the built environment is a learning process over time. So I think you did a magnificent job. Um, again, we applaud the the research and are delighted that Mahlum Architects was one of our ONEder Grant award winners. And I'll give you you get one last word or phrase or sentence if there's anything that you'd like to share that we didn't touch, that you think the listening audience should walk away with or not?

Claudia Saunders: [00:35:45] Oh my goodness CCB there's so many things. We had so much fun. We had so much fun reading so many papers. Um, I think for me, strangely, I loved the kind of the front part of this research where we got to dive into the history and defining what makes a teacher centric model, because I think when we know where we came from, it helps to understand the reaction and the pull of what we are in right now. There's some great case study examples that talk about some revolutionary design ideas and teaching models of the before times, and how there's actually a lot of great ideas from maybe that open that open school concept that we hear a lot as a failure are actually have come into this new learner centric model and it's myriad ways of being branded. But because there was not the overlap, there was not the alignment of people, practices and place. It was not successful. And I think that that pendulum swing of where we see one of those pieces start to really pull forward, but then not actually get strong legs is when they're not aligned. And so I would encourage us as designers, as educators, as parents, to understand the history of how we got here and to see the grains, the little seeds of ideas that have been planted, and all those times when there was an alignment. Because I do believe talking to our futurists, who is on our advisory, that the future is different than the past, and it really behooves us to understand that we are standing on the beginning of an incredible opportunity to really change how we support our educators and our students.

CCB: [00:37:41] Most excellent. Okay, I'm going to say we have to close out this wonderful podcast with Stacey and Claudia from Mahlum Architects. And again, thank you so much for your time. So much for your your commitment to the audiences that you work with and the contribution that you're making to our greater design community. Thanks for joining us and goodbye.