CCB: Welcome to the ONEder Podcast. This is your host, CCB. And today, we're excited to share the results from one of our ONEder Grant teams from 2025. You're going to be thrilled listening to this, because today, we're exploring a question that feels both urgent and deeply human. As artificial intelligence, oh, that word, rapidly reshapes how we work and learn, what does that mean for the spaces where learning and working happen? LPA's ONEder Grant research challenges us to think and rethink the classroom, not as a room, but as an ecosystem, one that has to balance technology, pedagogy, and human connection in entirely new ways. So I'm delighted to welcome Rachel Nasland and David Jakes from the LPA team. Rachel, how about you introduce yourself?

Rachel Nasland: Hi, thank you. Nice to be here. I'm a senior design researcher at LPA Design Studios, which means that I use my environmental psychology background to better understand how physical environments shape how people feel, think, and behave. And in my role, it's a lot about translating research and user insight into design strategies that better support how people are using space.

CCB: So before we ask David to introduce himself, I want you to explain why and you can share the title of the grant if you'd like, but but why is this topic important to LPA?

Rachel Nasland: Well, as a firm, LPA has been designing schools for a long time. And we've seen education evolve, especially more towards that collaborative student-centered model. And so with AI becoming more and more prevalent and in so many conversations, we really wanted to understand how that's starting to shape industry jobs and what effect that's going to have on students' learning and teaching, as we know that is going to influence how we're designing spaces. And we always want to stay ahead of the curve on that.

CCB: Perfect. I am going to jump in here for a minute and remind all of our listeners that there's always a webpage for the ONEder Grant and the ONEder Podcast. So there are going to be two places where you're going to be able to link up with this podcast information and also with all of the grant research. Now, we have a second guest who I'm delighted to welcome, David Jakes. Tell us who you are and what your role is in this particular project.

David Jakes: Hi everyone, my name is David Jakes. My background is in education. I spent 27 years in public K-12. 15 is a biology teacher and 12 is administrator in instructional technology. I also spent two years with the “third teacher design” studio of Cannon Design in Chicago where I learned design. And after that I spent the past 11 years as an independent consultant and learning space designer with my own firm David Jakes Designs. So a 41 year career. Went very fast. My role in the project was to be a provocateur and a coach, which is perfect for me. I really enjoyed my time with, working with LPA.

CCB: Oh, that sounds exciting. Nothing like a good provocateur.

David Jakes: Yeah

CCB: Okay, so let's start at the beginning. What were the questions that you were most compelled to answer that drove this research?

Rachel Nasland: That is a double-triple barreled question. It initially started off with just understand the simple idea of how is AI going to change our learning environments? And we didn't feel like we could just approach the question like that. We really wanted to understand what skills are students going to need going into the workforce, which is now also rapidly changing with AI. And how are those skills going to impact what they need to be taught in schools, which will also influence how we're using their spaces. So it ended up becoming a lot larger of a study where we wanted to look across all these groups and start to understand the trends around AI and its influence on student learning.

CCB: So that makes me ask this one interesting question. Because you always wonder like, actually, how did it start? Was there a moment when you realized the current model wasn't working? Was there some actual tipping point or was it just the cumulative awareness?

Rachel Nasland: I would say it's the cumulative awareness. This is something that's not just coming up in our education sector, but is coming up just in our day-to-day work as well. Really trying to stay ahead of things and understand the implication of new advancements is something we always prioritize. With this, we were really just starting to have questions and conversations with our clients, just starting to ask them a little bit more. What we were finding is that they were also curious about it. And so that's what really drove us to want to study it more intentionally.

CCB: Okay, David, this is your cue for 41 years and is it cumulative? Is it osmosis understanding everything that's going on? Or is there a real driver for your interest in wanting to understand more?

David Jakes: I started teaching when there were no copy machines in schools. So I've had the good fortune of the technology emerge from microcomputers to the web, into cell phones, into one-to-one programs. So for me, this is a natural outgrowth of my experience and my interest in technology. To look at these tools and the capacity of AI, this has a chance to be the most profound advancement in technology as it applies to schools that I've seen. Again, I've witnessed everything from the very beginning of technology in schools. So my interest is in looking at pedagogical models. They make sense. We talked a lot with educators. I did a lot of interviews with educators, and they're mostly concerned with productive struggle in maintaining the timeless elements of learning. And so when you're talking about the kind of experiences you want to have kids have in school where they're really challenged, where they think deeply and so on, I can talk more about that if you want. But AI can disrupt all that. And so every technology that emerges really is disruptive and it forces schools to consider the course correct, rethink things. And so in my role as an educator and as an educator designer, I'm really focused on helping schools understand how to make sense of the moment and make the best of it.

CCB: That's going to remind me, Rachel, that there were probably a few more people on your team, aside from the two of you.

Rachel Nasland: Thank you for bringing that up. I should have addressed that from the beginning. We had a lot of people contributing to this research. Kimari Phillips, she's a research manager on our team and she comes from a different type of background than me, but in a similar role of where we're trying to really help our teams make informed design decisions. And so we work side by side. Kate Mraw is principal and director of our K-12 department. And Kate was also someone who really pushed us to dive into this research, really encouraged us to, because she's seeing just, as you said, David, how much of a disruptor AI is and how a lot of our clients are coming to us with these questions of how we're seeing it start to change education and the delivery model of that. Kimari and I shared this personal interest of understanding that mismatch between what current spaces are doing for students and what they need to be doing. And I think that's something that always drives our research in general, is trying to better understand how we can create a better alignment between behaviors in space. And so that was something that contributed to our interest in understanding this better.

CCB: So clearly there are practices, policies, tools that are having an impact on the way that learning is taking place in the classroom and the relationship between the educators, the learners and those tools and practices. If you're talking about this change from traditional classrooms to interconnected learning ecosystems, which you're going to spend a little bit more time talking about, I'm curious how you explain that thought process from how do we take all of the activities and the characters in the space and reorganize them or understand them more effectively so that space can be reorganized or retooled to support the new activities.

David Jakes: When you go to school and you walk on a double loaded corridor, you see the classrooms are lined up. They're 800 square foot classrooms. You know, kids walk in, you've got 25 to 30 kids in there, and you know, you've got the teacher, and a lot of times the kids will line up in rows, and you have the traditional kind of classroom. And you can shut your door and do your thing. I mean, I did it. I know what that's like. And so you're talking about school settings that are inherently isolating. They can be very isolating. Each teacher is in their classroom doing their own things with their kids. So when we talk about, you know, a learning ecology, or learning ecosystem, we're talking about broadening that. We're talking about breaking down barriers.

I taught ecology as part of my biology class, and when we're talking about ecology, you're talking about interconnections, right? So if we apply that same kind of connection, that same kind of idea to learning space design, we're looking at spaces that are connected together that each space amplifies each other. The spaces work together as a cohesive whole. You have libraries, you have maker spaces, you have corridors, all those things have to be designed to be integrated together because learning can happen anywhere. And especially when you're talking about AI, which is a great equalizer and a great amplifier of learning potentially. The spaces have to be capable of doing that. And the most important thing to realize about that, and this is where LPA's work with learning space design comes in and the influence of AI is that you can't have a contemporary learning experience in 2026 in spaces that were designed in 1980.

CCB: On the other hand, there are loads of people in classrooms and students that are having to manage through that. And it makes me think about as we get to work with LPA on certain projects and we're delighted to see the evolution of the classroom and how things are moving. And there's this big question about how to build the ecosystem with an envelope that demands some level of rigor and structure. I'm talking about the architecture of the space. You're talking about the double-edged corridors. So what changes? How do you make it more? How do you blur the lines more effectively?

Rachel Nasland: I think, first of all, you need to switch your thinking from the classroom is the only space that learning is done in. And I think that's just mentally kind of severing that thought process and starting to look at how to repurpose spaces. So you're correct. It is most challenging in a school that might need to just be retrofated or use what they have. But there's still small ways that you can try to introduce it. And so trying to use hallways or corners of the library or different spaces that are not utilized and make them into small group spaces or spaces that allow students to disconnect and not feel like they're on visible display and they can regulate their emotions. And so being able to create more of those breakout zones and repurposing kind of the edges in the ancillary spaces that are attached to our room, I think that would be first thing. Actually, first thing is taking down all of the paper that's blocking all the windows and the doors because creating an environment where learning is always on display is beneficial. So that's first then trying to break down our spaces. So it's not just one large room where all the students are facing forward, but we're breaking it into smaller learning spaces. Furniture is a great way to be able to modify the space as well. So creating spaces with flexible furniture that can be moved and configured into different group sizes is also very helpful to increase that flexibility.

CCB: One of the things that you're both talking about, and David, you really introduced it much more in the biology or the ecosystem itself. You're saying the same thing, Rachel, that we're not talking about a single room, but we're talking about this network, not only of spaces, but of experiences. So I kind of want to take us back to the, you know, what do we think that the AI activity, what demands is that going to make on the way that the ecosystem comes together?

Rachel Nasland: In lieu of ecosystems and coming from a researcher's brain, you want to think about the different processes that the mind goes through in learning. First, you have inquiring and addressing that kind of initial problem. And then you go into kind of creation and then you have the next step of critique and modification and reflection. And so looking at the space and finding opportunities where those different modes of thinking can happen will start to create that ecosystem. And so that's coming from the perspective of a researcher who is hyper focused on our brain processes, but looking at the different ways that our brain is taking in information, modifying it, questioning it. That is going hand in hand with how AI is going to impact our learning.

David Jakes: there's an opportunity to think of a different model. And I think, now you've got your classroom, you've got your physical spaces, right? That's one component of learning ecosystems. The other part is a virtual kind of experience where you have cloud-based kinds of learning environments. Schools aren't good at that, in my opinion. And kids are sort of, you’ve got to realize we're dealing with kids that were going through the pandemic so they're sort of tired of online learning. But when you're talking about a comprehensive of the economy of spaces, you're talking about analog spaces, the classrooms and all that in their physical spaces, you're talking about virtual things. Online spaces for learning. And the connective tissue between those are devices, right? So when we're looking at kind of, if I was in my classroom, I'm in my classroom, I want to make learning visible. I want to have displays that show, and I want to have whiteboard spaces that our kids can write on and collaborate on and make their thinking visible. Because I want to see how they're thinking. And then I want to see, understand how they're using AI. And so I want them to be engaged in a reflective process and tell me, how is AI influencing work? How is it modifying your work? What do you think AI adds value to the learning experience? Because when we're talking about technology, AI included the first rule of technology use in schools is use it when it advances the experience that you offer. If it doesn't, don't use it. So when we go back to the classrooms, we can always talk about enduring value and when people ask me about the value of classrooms, then I'm going to go back to the reason why we have classrooms. It's a place where kids that wanna learn, meet the built, are going to help them do that. And that's where your starting point is with a discussion of AI.

Rachel Nasland: What's interesting is students, I feel like we're acutely aware of what you're saying, at least in terms of our study. They spoke about wanting to maintain that human connection to their teacher and allow AI only to offload the things that didn't necessarily need to be taught to them. And they looked at it kind of as a substitute person, substitute teammate or classmate that can think through things with them when they didn't have someone else around. And so it was interesting that they didn't want AI to do the work for them and they were worried themselves about losing that productive struggle that you mentioned earlier on. They want to learn and they want their teacher to be able to build a relationship with them, which I thought was really encouraging to hear.

CCB: I'm actually, I'm struck by a number of conversations that I've heard recently, which, and I have a couple of questions in my mind here. You were looking at K-12, but was there a particular grade range that you were on your research that's just one question that's in the back of my mind. But I was talking with a group of workplace leaders across the technology world in Silicon Valley. And they were, it was so curious because to a person, the leaders that had children that were in their teens and early twenties said they didn't want to use AI. They were more opposed to the use of it than you would think. So I'm, I was just wondering, is there, are we seeing like a gradual growth of acceptance and the older you are, the harder it is kind of sort of.

Rachel Nasland: You know, I have actually heard studies that would echo that. We did not see that directly in our findings and we did, we did survey teachers, any K-12 teachers, and it seemed pretty consistent across that there was just a large unfamiliarity of how AI would disrupt their teaching. And there was a big concern around the ethics of it. But then when we spoke to students and we were really trying to understand from students their comfortability with it, how it was being used in their classrooms now, and how they would like to see space change to accommodate that. And it was really interesting because it just kept going back to them. So these are the high school students and it kept going back to them not wanting to lose that human interaction with their teacher. And every time we asked different groups, what do you love about learning? So many times they said, my teacher teaching it to me. And so we did not speak to younger students in elementary school directly about it, but that's what we were finding in high school is that there was apprehension about it. And most of the students who were using it, it was on a personal basis compared to within their lesson plan. So I do think there's just a bit of a learning curve going on of people trying to figure out how can we use this in a productive way within the classroom rather than a replacement.

CCB: Yeah, the idea that students don't want AI to replace some part of the experience is pretty powerful.

Rachel Nasland: I was very surprised. I was very surprised.

CCB: What are your observations David?

David Jakes: Well, you know, you got to remember they’re kids, right? And school is so important to them. For so many reasons, social, you know, emotional, academic, all those things come into play. And, you know, it's, they don't want school to be an impersonal place. You know, this notion of AI tutors, they push back on that pretty hard. They want people to lead them through. Young kids resonate with their teachers. They've grown up with their teachers, but it's about the human qualities of teaching and learning that are most important. Now, AI is going to influence and challenges to think what that means. Most of what figuring out means is figuring out how do we, how do we start thinking about how this becomes a tool that if they're learning rather than replace learning.

Rachel Nasland: if I had to walk away with one thing that I learned is that the soft and durable skills ended up being more important and this was across industry Participants teachers and students and it was really interesting to see students reflect what was being said in industry and when talking about AI and the skills that need to be developed it kept going back to the human aspects the skills that had to do most with Human relationships, so there was critical thinking curiosity Empathy and discernment were just over and over the skills that students and industry professionals were feeling like it's going to be most Important in this AI world

CCB: Since many of the other repetitive kind of tasks can be replaced by those large learning models, etc, etc. I am interested in the demand. I think one of your findings was that as AI increases the cognitive demand, because people have to think a little bit more, that the environment matters even more. So we're talking about the relationship component here, of how students and teachers are going to continue to relate and students and students. How does the space then support that or does it really need to make that big of a change?

Rachel Nasland: So this shift I feel like has been building for years now and AI is accelerating it, but in the early 2000s we started to see the shift to this construction based learning where project based learning is gaining more traction. And in the, you know, 2010s and on, we're starting to see more flexible classrooms and collaboration spaces and now with AI, it's just amplifying it more and I think it's making that misalignment between space a little more obvious. And so I wouldn't say there's dramatic shifts, but just more emphasis on a lot of these spaces and some of them being collaboration hubs so more spaces for students to be able to work together and problem solve having spaces that are dedicated to teacher mentorship came up a lot because students are placing higher value on that relationship with their instructor so allowing space to be flexible so they can move around it easily they can go and work with smaller groups.

And then to your point, I think potentially the most important space that is being emphasized here is respite spaces that are quiet zones that allow students to seek reprieve to disconnect and to really regulate themselves and so in using more technology it does strain our brains more we weren't built for this our brains are meant to be outside in nature. And so by putting ourselves in buildings and putting more screens in front of us and more technology interface, it does take a cognitive toll. And so having spaces for students to be able to regulate that is going to be so important and I think that's the hardest thing for schools and teachers alike to accept because a lot of times there's a fear around well what if I can't observe this student or why would they be breaking away from the class and I think that's something that needs to gain greater acceptance around is allowing students to be able to monitor themselves and step away when they need to.

CCB: The word agency of course comes up and just how are students gaining autonomy and the ability to have an impact on their own agency. So David, what is that, you know, how does that land in all of the kind of evolution that you're seeing?

David Jakes: Well, when you're talking about agency, you know, it's when you grant agency to kids when they have choices, they can make choices It's the highest form of engagement and you won't find a teacher when you look at the research That's out there about engagement and performance and the chief I'm gauging there the better they're going to do in school and learning, you know It's if you can make one change in in schools that would improve schools It's allowing kids to have more of a voice in their own education The danger in with AI and the danger with any technology if you look at the history of technology in schools Is that AI is in in any technology generally offered as a choice to educators to use it as a tool And so we're I always struggled as an instructional technology coordinator was it was that model in the sense that You may have in you know high school. You may have six teachers that are were technology users You know and really are interested in it And so you've got a great experience in technology and then you may for the luck of the draw and got teachers that weren't Technology and so your experience was very limited in technology You've graduated kids and have unequal experiences So as schools move forward, I think there's a real opportunity to start thinking about What does what does a guaranteed and viable experience and what what does that look like for kids?

Rachel Nasland: I think when you talk about agency, I think something that needs to be addressed is this alignment among educators and the administration. And I think that's something that sometimes gets left behind. But when it's successful, we say there's explicit permission, and that has to be kind of agreed upon. There needs to be shared expectations, co-supervision, and trust across classrooms for it to be successful. And I think sometimes people think, oh, just build it and it will work. But we need to also empower our educators to let their students roam and have agreement across educators to be able to co-supervise and know what's acceptable behavior and where they might need to intervene and bring each other in.

CCB: This is so interesting because I had a bunch of questions that you've answered without me asking them. So I'm looking now for what was it exactly that I wanted you to share. And I think if I'm a school leader or a designer listening to this, what are one or two really practical takeaways that you would share with them? And again, I'm going to remind all of our listeners that you're going to be able to go reference the research that LPA has done and it will be published on the ONEder Grant website. So you'll be able to look at it a little bit more closely. But in the teaser takeaway, what would you say?

Rachel Nasland: I think if we're expecting our students to adopt a curious mindset, I think we have to as well. And we have to explore AI alongside them and figure out the ways that we can use it to grow our learning. In terms of spatial design, I will reiterate having spaces that allow students to self-regulate and be able to break away and reset, I think is so important for learning, because that allows them to re-enter the classroom with, and I say the classroom, not the actual four walls, but to re-enter the lesson with greater ability to partake and absorb what they're learning.

CCB: I love that. It brings us right back to what this is really all about. It's not technology for technology's sake or design for design's sake, but the idea of environments and technology that work together to help folks connect more deeply and become more fully human, especially as they're learning process.

Rachel Nasland: Yeah, the best learning environments won't be the ones that just have the most technology thrown into them. Yes, it's going to be important to use it within the learning process, but the best learning environments will most effectively support how our students are learning and that range of thought process that we talked about and how it's supporting their engagement with their peers and educator.

CCB: I want to say again, thank you so much to Rachel and David for talking to us about the LPA ONEder Grant, which you will be able to find again on both the ONEder Grant page and our ONEder podcast page. And I encourage you listeners to check out the information because there is so much more in detail and having these conversations are like little, what's the word I want? Pu Pu platters. They just give us a little tiny bit of information that is tempting and you want to have more. So thank you very much for your time for sharing the research from LPA and I'm going to say, remember the ONEder podcast is available on all your podcast services. You'll be able to find it on Apple and Spotify and everywhere else. And we'll help you'll be back soon for another ONEder podcast. Thank you so much.

Rachel Nasland: Thank you.

David Jakes: Thank you.