CCB: Welcome back to the ONEder Podcast, where we explore the people and the ideas that are shaping the future of environments for learning, healing, innovating, and building community. This is your host, CCB, again, and today we're diving into the powerful theme of design for belonging, creating more inclusive healthcare care environments. At Providence Healthcare, care a bold commitment to health equity has sparked a groundbreaking initiative, that looks into how the spaces we design send signals about who is welcome, who is seen, and who matters. Joining me for this conversation today are two incredible leaders, Lauren Cole from Providence Health Care, who has helped launch the Design for Belonging initiative and Jessica Radecki from NBBJ, whose design expertise is helping translate research into real world impact. Together, we're going to explore how emergency departments, often the front door to the health system, can be transformed into places that don't just treat illness, but also foster safety, dignity, and connection. So whether you're a healthcare provider, a designer, or simply someone passionate about creating more inclusive communities, this conversation will inspire new ways to think about the spaces where care happens. Welcome, Jessica and Lauren. How about each give us a quick version of your backstory? What brought you to this work? Jessica.

Jessica Radecki: Well, Lauren actually brought us to this work from Providence and her initiative. But, you know, in the last a few years, JEDI has been something or DEI has been something that, you know, a lot of firms have been focusing on. And certainly we should focusing on that all the time. And our role as designers has a lot of influence in terms of how people feel in a space. And So as an architect, you know, it's kind of like, how can I help? How can I contribute? We're already in this health healthcare design space, which is really rewarding because there's such a tremendous impact in community. I think this just takes it up a notch and we're always ready for a challenge. So um we're really thrilled to be part of this um initiative with Lauren.

CCB: OK, Lauren.

Lauren Cole: My background is in healthcare interiors. I never intended to go into healthcare ever, and I'm so I'm still in it 10 years later. um But I did have a really cool boss. My first job as a facilities interior a designer at a health system in Michigan. And my first day on the job, she took me out to lunch and she said, why are you excited about health care? And I said, well, I'm not because Idon't want to get pigeonholed into being a health care designer. And she totally changed my perspective because she said, you know, gosh, if you can design for health care. You can design for anything because under this umbrella, you think about all the facilities that make up a healthcare system, you're going to do corporate interiors. You're going to do hospitality. You're going to do retail. And by the way, there's this whole clinical component that you're going to do. So, and that, that has proved true. And I have absolutely fallen in love with the work that we do. it has a tremendous amount of meaning. And for this project, there were a couple kind of Genesis points. So one was, um I joined the Health Equity Fellowship at Providence. And this is a $50 million dollars commitment that Providence has made to initiatives that, I mean, really run the gamut in terms of advancing health equity. So we've had caregivers look at reducing morbidity rates in Black maternal patients. And we've had ah Clinicians look at advancing language access for people who speak English as a second language across the continuum of care. So there's a tremendous amount of work that's been done. I am really excited to be the first person to explore space in the context of this fellowship. And I invited Jessica along for the ride primarily because of some research that NBBJ did recently with Dr. John Medina and the delight factor, which really quantified ah feeling. And that was so fascinating to me. And so they were like a no brainer partner to turn around and do something similar under the initiative of health equity.

CCB: Fantastic. Okay, so Lauren, you have said that spaces send messages, who is welcome, who is seen and who matters. How exactly do you see that playing out in healthcare?

Lauren Cole: Yeah, well, I think, you know, different populations of people have had different experiences with large systemic organizations. You could say that that's government, you could say that's education, you could say that that's healthcare, but the experiences have been really varied. And not everybody comes to it with a lens of, ah being we looking forward to the experience. I always say that healthcare is kind of unique because none of our customers actually want to be our customers. Nobody's excited about going to the doctor. Nobody's excited about going to the emergency department. But healthcare is one of the few professions right now that there has to be a human element to it. it's you know there's There's all types of virtual models of care, which are great, and we're embracing those But ultimately, there's a real human experience in healthcare. care And what I've seen in past projects, I've seen it work both ways. I designed a project many moons ago ah that we got a call after the project opened. And one of the clinic managers said, hey, we're we're having heck of a time getting patients in this facility. Can you just like if we set up a meeting with a community group, can you connect with us? Absolutely. So the design team went in and we start having this conversation. And at one point, one of the community members just said pretty bluntly, you know, I look, I don't want to go to the white person clinic. And that's a fair criticism. If you are part of a population that has been historically marginalized, What does it mean to go to a space where you personally are celebrated and you are welcome? It doesn't feel the same to everybody. So I've seen it go that way. I've also seen it go really well. I worked on a project in Texas um and we had an executive on that project that Every meeting, she would remind us the whole purpose of this project was for all the patients to walk in and feel valued and respected and loved. And again, working with the marginalized community, we had to put a lot of thought into that. It's not, you know, Joe doctor's office. It needed to be very specifically designed to cater to this community. And and I've seen it happen really well.

CCB: Excellent. I want to Jessica, I want to ask a question about the NBBJ engagement, but also the um the very strong interest in the research that supports the design that you all work on. And I'm reminded of another project that we were very fortunate to be involved with, which is the Ohana Center.

Jessica Radecki: Ooh.

CCB: That's spectacular and beautiful. And when you hear the client talk about the the complete success of the design and the engagement and bringing people together. But they also talked about the research that NBBJ brought. So what are you bringing into this particular initiative?

Jessica Radecki: Well, I think as architects and designers, we are always game for learning new things. And also, I think it takes some humility to know that we don't always have all the answers. And so that research is critical. um And knowing where it's coming from is another ah important source of of, you know, who's doing the research and then what your sources are. um You know, for Ohana, what a spectacular, beautiful, impactful ah building that is. And I think it kind of boils down to basic dignity. You know, like ah really... really recognizing that every space needs to emote and evoke dignity for the inhabitant. And so getting to... um what that dignity looks like looks very different among many different populations and across many different demographics. you know And so I think it's really important for us as designers to be ready to ask questions um to the specific populations that the buildings are going to serve. And that's what we really loved about this particular effort with Providence is that ah they were and they were willing to make that investment. And I would say, you know, it's not always a given on any ah and new project that, you know, we have that kind of reach into the community to ask. And I know Ohana, we tapped into Dr. John Medina from the UW School of Medicine, which is a fabulous neuroscience doctor, very dynamic guy He brought a lot to the table. And I believe there were a lot of the focus groups and interviews and, you know, even tapping the clinicians. They're so passionate about what they do. um All that mixed together is really, you know, informs the design and whether it's formal research that you're tapping into or you're, you know, having anecdotal conversations with different community groups, all that matters. And that all has to be aggregated by the design team yeah and supported by the client.

CCB: So I want to say, NBBJ, you're incredibly lucky with a lot of the clients that you work with. And you've got, you know, an amazing advocate here with Lauren and and Providence. And ah there's so many things that Lauren has said. And I'm going to say, ah footnote, we we had a great um panel discussion hosted that by One Workplace about design for equity in healthcare care environments. And Lauren was one of our panelists. So I actually do have like little Lauren. What would I call them? Laurenites in my ear?

Lauren Cole: ah Lauren is in.

CCB: No. Lauren-isms.

Jessica Radecki: Laurenisms, yeah.

CCB: Thank you. Thank you. It's been a day. But anyway, the um the idea of calling ah if the emergency department in this particular project is where you are focusing on initial. Lauren, you called it the front door of healthcare care and and you just said patients don't necessarily want to come through it. so Does that make it the critical point for designing for belonging? what What actually, was there like a complete this is it moment?

Lauren Cole: Yeah, that's ah that's a good question. I think an important distinction here is that, yes, the emergency department is often the front door. it is also not what we traditionally want the front door of the health system to be. We would love people to ah have preventative care, access to preventative care through regular you know primary care appointments and a a whole health care team that's working on the whole person. That's not always possible. And again, particularly in populations that have been marginalized, might not have access, regular access to healthcare. Those are the people that we tend to meet for the first time at the emergency department. Emergency departments are also great for study because they have access to more data than some other service lines in the hospital. So for example, in this study, we were able to look at patients who leave without being seen. That's not necessarily a metric that's tracked in every unit of the hospital, but it can tell us a lot about somebody's experience in our facility.

CCB: Oh my gosh. So Jessica, if they, if that's the challenge to create an environment that actually does create a sense of invitation, ah sense of like you in the broadest sense belonging, but that feeling that you talk about Lauren, how, how does, you know, a designer and though you both are designers, but one of you is the client today, how, how do you, how do you, uh,

Jessica Radecki: see

CCB: How do you identify the biggest opportunities for change?

Jessica Radecki: Well, kind of going back to what we said earlier, you asked the question. Right, you you map that patient journey and it can start from the moment, it can start really when you schedule an appointment, but really um from the the physical environment, I think once you step foot on their property, you know what messages are are you receiving as a patient? Is it easy to navigate? you know um Am I able to find the front door? you know Start like at the very, very beginning and not really limit the design thinking to just the minute you touch the door handle you know to enter. And I think for the ED, We asked the question, yeah we really looked at the different steps on how you approach the ED. And we really focused on from that kind of patient arrival sequence um through check-in, um triage, and then the waiting right before you cross that threshold into kind of clinical care. So that was kind of the the scope of the study. And, you know, patients are probably at their most vulnerable as they're walking or wheeled into the emergency department. And so if you can really, you know, impact that experience, I feel like you could have a very positive impact, um you know, further into the hospital. And even as it becomes a little bit more elective for reasons why you're there. um Yeah.

Lauren Cole: I would actually, ah I would add to that just a little bit too.

CCB: I'm, go ahead.

Lauren Cole: There's a few terms that are thrown around pretty interchangeably in the design industry. And if you really dig into the etymology and you're a nerd like me, um there are there are some really important differences. So accessible design, that just means that we're meeting ADA code requirements. And that can that doesn't affect overall experience. That just means you can get in the building. yeah The term universal design was introduced after that and is supposed to be a little bit more all encompassing that, you know, not only can I access the building, but I'm accessing the same point at the building that other people are.

Jessica Radecki: Thank you.

Lauren Cole: But lately, the movement in the industry has really been towards inclusive design. which is distinct from the other two, because it it takes into account, certainly, ah you know, the experience is like just being able to get in the door, but it does it in a way that's a little bit more intentional and allows for more equity and experience. So if, ah for example, ah if I'm in a wheelchair and Jessica and I are going to walk in the door together, if she goes up a flight of stairs and I go up a ramp, not that is really disruptive to the experience. And there's no reason that we couldn't have one ramp that Jessica and I both walk up and create one point of entry that is truly equitable. Inclusive design is also great because it takes into account factors like religion, language, cultural background, and things that aren't necessarily addressed in in formal guidelines like the Americans with Disabilities Act.

CCB: That's an excellent point. And I am going to say um the encyclopedic knowledge that you bring to this project, um Lauren, is is very impressive. And over numerous conversations, I have I am continually awed by the depth of your commitment and your interest and your curiosity around this. So in this project that you're both working on together, um the term ambient belonging comes in. And I would love for either or both of you to give the definition of how you are looking at ambient belonging.

Lauren Cole: Yeah, so ambient belonging came out of a study done in the mid 2000s. And this was a study that was looking at women in STEM. And they did all this really interesting survey and observation um of of women in STEM work environments. And what they noticed was women who were in environments that were considered stereotypically male like, you know, it's kind of geeky, maybe we have Star Trek posters on the wall or whatever, Legos everywhere. I love Legos, by the way. But um women in those environments did not feel welcome because the environment was not designed with them in mind. And so this term of ambient belonging, really at its most basic is just do you walk into a space and inherently feel like you belong. Nobody has to implicitly tell you, but you can tell maybe even subconsciously, maybe it's not even a conscious thought that this is a space that was designed with you in mind.

CCB: Jessica, you take that to the practical application of design, what what does that start to sound like?

Jessica Radecki: Well, it's it starts with that initial impression, you know, when you walk through that front door and um can you read the signs? You know, does it like it's it's a natural flow. think when we were talking about just in the very beginning, it try to it's it's difficult to kind of pinpoint what does that mean? How do you feel like you're a blind ah you you belong? But that ambient notion, you know, takes it to a level of, I don't have to do anything. I just am. And it is, and and it works together, you know? So from a design perspective, and especially getting feedback from the um from the focus groups and the surveys that we got, um one of the first things that people noted was, you know, I and can't read the sign or, you know, that I trying to understand you know how to navigate this process with this security guard person. And you know they're asking me think to do things and I'm just trying to get my bearings and it feels rushed and you know a little bit hard to navigate. and And for us as the design team, we were thinking like, well, gosh, maybe this isn't like, it doesn't have to be these super big moves. Maybe this is you know kind of finessing some space that's already there. And we we just need to work within that. um And that there's always kind of that positive change that you can you can make. um But it it doesn't have to be a sweeping move to make you know everyone feel like they belong.

CCB: So I'm going to toss it back to Lauren again and say, so there is power in place without a doubt, but that's not all that's required. And Jessica, you just brought up the security guard, but there are the people and is that the process and you know the policies? How does Providence look at all of this um holistically?

Lauren Cole: Yeah, I mean, the the number one priority at Providence is always going to be safety. Safety of the patients, safety of the providers, safety of any guests, family. Everybody should feel safe in our hospitals. Security is, a I would say, a ah potentially divisive element of that. They're incredibly important. The work that our security team does ah not not just in terms of kind of enforcing laws and rules and everything, but a lot of times they're the first face that you see when you walk into the hospital. um it It's tremendously important work. So what I thought was so interesting in these focus groups is we had one of the groups say, security is important and I want I want to see them. I want it to be visible. I want them to look like police. I want I want to understand that security is here, is present, is watching, and is going to keep me safe. And then we met with another group that said, you know, the the people that I'm here to represent, our relationship with security and with kind of law enforcement isn't quite the same, and it can make us really uncomfortable. And there were some interesting questions brought up about Like, what's the purpose of security and how do we communicate that purpose clearly to people who are maybe meeting us for the first time? You know, is is the purpose of security to check your immigration status and to you know potentially report any kind of violations there? That's a really real fear in this country right now. um And and something that that we got asked. And the truth is, that's not the purpose of our security. But if you don't know that, if you are not in in some way, shape or form, if that's not communicated, that that can be really challenging.

Jessica Radecki: Mm-hmm.

Lauren Cole: And we've had patients say, like, you know, part of the reason I don't go to the doctor, and I I'm nervous. I'm nervous to go through security.

CCB: Oh, my goodness. So there's a really interesting part ah but we want to get to the actual playbook that all of this research you know has turned into an actionable tool. But um I'm struck by that. you know Your remarks about ah in previous conversations, the you know Maslow needs the waiting room because you're just addressing that right now. If I don't have security or safety, I I'm not going to move to the next step. um Huh. So, so how do you think, I don't even know how to ask that question. It's, it's, it's about the importance of layering the belonging on top of the functionality and, and yeah, that strength of connection.

Lauren Cole: Correct. Yeah. So the tie-in to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs was, I feel like, one of the big light bulb moments for the project. And as soon as the project, the research team made that connection, it was just ah like everything started to to click and make sense. So in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, it's a pyramid shape. And it's like that on purpose because you build layers on top of the other and you can't get to the top without having the foundation in place. And the first layer of Maslow's hierarchy of needs is physiological. And when we were looking through survey data and we were talking with patients, there actually was a really ah not funny, but funny. a comment that was made on a survey. And this patient said, you know, I am sick and I am in pain. I do not give a shit what the artwork looks like. And again, like super blunt, but that is really critical feedback. And so when we were talking about this concept of ambient belonging, we had to acknowledge a couple things. One is we have to address basic needs, things like temperature, access to food and water, ah feminine hygiene products, like like true, just physical needs. We had to address that first. in order to get to a point where people do care about elements like artwork. um And I think it's also important to note there too, in an ED specifically, not every patient is going to feel that belonging because we can't address, like the building cannot fix a broken arm, right? But we have to do our best to address those basic needs before we can do anything else.

CCB: I will say that um not too long ago, I had my own fair share of interaction with the emergency department going through ah little health challenge of my own. and And if I could have not gone, I would have not gone because it had all of those elements of, and this is a massive hospital and, you know, in a major urban environment. And, you know, they're trying to do their best, but it is, it's overwhelmingly, Um, insulting is was the feeling. Um, so, so I, um, you know I'm so curious as to what the, you know, what are those interventions that, you know, are going to meet are going to be made within Providence emergency departments as a result of thinking through this.

Lauren Cole: Well, I think just to take like a small step back One of the things that we realized initially when we were scoping this project, Jessica and I were like, you know what, we're going to have like three really sexy renderings in here that show what ah what a great waiting room looks like ah from a perspective of belonging.

Jessica Radecki: Thank

Lauren Cole: And as we started touring facilities, we we kind of went, oh, I don't think we can do that. Because, you know, at at Providence Portland Medical Center, as an example, we have a waiting room that's several thousand square feet. It's bigger than my first apartment. And there's a lot that you can do there. That's a facility that gets pretty steady funding. But we also went and looked at Providence Hood River and Providence Hood River is in a tiny little town in the Columbia River Gorge. And that waiting room is like two private offices put together, it's it's really small. And so that perfect score, perfect solution at Hood River is not going to look the same as it looks at Providence Portland Medical Center. And that's okay. But we we have to take that kind of diversity of existing conditions into account.

CCB: And one might suppose that there are going to be some um non-negotiables

Lauren Cole: Correct. Correct.

CCB: and where yeah where does where did they fall where does the where's the line drawn.

Lauren Cole: I mean, again, the the emphasis on safety is is incredibly important, cannot be overstated, this emphasis on safety. I think one of the other very real constraints that Providence is not alone here, this is going to be something I'm sure Jessica has encountered on every single project recently, and and probably most of your listeners are familiar with it too, is just the financial challenges of healthcare right now. The reality is that we are not in a position to take these six emergency departments that were studied and gut them and completely renovate them. So when we were thinking about the design interventions and potential solutions, it was also important to integrate a diversity of kind of like level of intervention. You you know, what, what are some quick, easy wins that we could accomplish internally? Maybe it's with the stuff we already have, certainly the people that we already have, maybe it's something the facilities team can step in and help with a little bit of paint or hanging artwork or, you know, what have you. It doesn't always have to be, and sorry, Jessica, but it doesn't always have to be where I call Jessica and say, I have, you know, $50 million, dollars build me a new ed So, yeah, um It's um important to note that not every intervention means that you are really like digging into the coffers financially.

CCB: I'm going to take a moment here and remind all of our listeners that um there are the wonder podcast is on all streaming services. so you're going to be able to touch this, but there also is the webpage that will have all the contact information. So you'd be able to get a little bit more information from either Lauren or Jessica or both. And they have an upcoming presentation that they're really gearing up to share this much more broadly.

Jessica Radecki: you

CCB: So that being said, There is a design for belonging playbook that you have been working on. Tell us a little bit about that.

Jessica Radecki: Well, it really kind of memorializes all the work that we have been doing to date on this. And it's broken up into kind of three three ah sections, if you will. ah The first section is just kind of defining what you know all the research that we've learned so far. What is ambient belonging, like that Maslow's hierarchy of needs and our ambient belonging ah diagram that Lauren talked about earlier. um are you know there in the forefront so that whoever is reading this playbook really understands the context at which um this playbook is really kind of grounded into. So that's part of, that's kind of the first section is really kind of building the case. um Then we go into ah kind of a scorecard. um So the design playbook is really meant for any design team to take a scorecard and um score their existing spaces. Or if there isn't an existing space, then to prompt design teams to ask questions of their clients and the care teams about you know how they feel their space or what they would like their space to do or how it would perform. So Lauren and I and our team used the scorecard that we developed after you know getting all the input from the community and focus groups and clinicians um took that and scored scored these existing EDs. um So that's part of it. um And then we, ah depending on how you scored, if you could kind of see, well, let me back up here. The scorecard is is um divided into a few sections that relate to this notion of ambient belonging. So there are elements within you know each sequence of space that has that relate to connection to, um let's see here, can't remember. ah Connection, Lauren, help me out here. There's a, I don't have it right in front of me, so I hope you can edit this out.

Lauren Cole: it It's connection, respect, and belonging, if I remember the third.

Jessica Radecki: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Respect. ah Acceptance. think that was it too.

Lauren Cole: Acceptance.

Jessica Radecki: I

Lauren Cole: You got it.

Jessica Radecki: Yeah. Yes. And so the scorecard categorizes those concepts within the physical space. So depending on you know how how each space scores, it kind of tells you where you should probably put your priorities. Now, once you score it it's great. It's a great vehicle to facilitate discussion with the client and with the care team to really see what makes sense. You know, from there, as how can we prioritize like um these interventions? Because... um Lauren will tell you, you know all her work that she's done with care teams, you know there's a limited pot of money. And so how best, we shouldn't as a design team and you know make the assumption that we know where to prioritize the money. We can certainly, um suggest and recommend, but at the end of the day, I think it's really important to ask the people, boots on the ground, you know, how in how, where are we going to get the biggest impact ah for these interventions? So that's the scorecard. And then the second part is all about those interventions, those design interventions. And there's a little, there's a matrix. They're kind of, it's it aligns with the scorecard. So it's it's like if you were to say you had a low score on your waiting room um and ah you could take that scorecard and go to the matrix that we have and find on that list, you know, kind of the low scorecard. low impact to high impact or low investment to high impact. And then from there, we have some suggestions that kind of leads to the next um side of that interventions toolkit. And so, you know, it's really trying to establish a framework and not necessarily hone in on solutions. like Lauren said, you know we tried to start with like, oh, let's do a case study and let's um you know have these beautiful renderings. But man, it's going to look different in any place that you go. So, and who's to say that you know what we are saying is a one size fits all. That's the problem with design in the first place is that

CCB: I have one question for Lauren, which is about, um, when like one of another Lauren ism that belonging shows up on the balance sheet, and this is connected to what you're just talking about here right now, that they're actually findings that, um, that showed the link between that, that, that feeling of belonging and patient satisfaction.

Lauren Cole: Absolutely. So at the very outset of this project, I said, if we can't get Greg Hoffman, who's the chief financial officer at Providence, if Greg Hoffman does not see the value in this work, we fail. Like we have to make it make sense to the the people that control the budget and can help implement some of this. So it was really important to tie our findings back into some of the financial metrics of the system. So there's a couple of key things that we were able to make connections with, which are are amazing. First is that we talked ah at the beginning quite a bit about the importance of that basic needs category. And what we found is that that basic needs category was a big determining factor in the overall score. So if you scored low in basic needs, your ambient belonging score was also going to be pretty low and vice versa. If you score high, it would be high. um We also looked at patient feedback from Press Ganey and our HCAP scores. And we were again able to draw a direct connection between the ambient belonging score And those patient satisfaction scores. And then kind of hot off the presses here, um I mentioned patients leaving without being seen. And that was another category that we could actually use ambient belonging as a potential predictor of the number of patients leaving without being seen. There's there's a ah direct relationship there.

CCB: Oh my gosh. Okay, so we're at the end of our time and I am astonished at how much information we still could be in conversation around and I'm going to remind all of our listeners that there will be those links that you can check into more. um Give us a little out take on what's next for design for belonging at Providence.

Lauren Cole: Sure. So at the end of the project, we shifted gears a little bit in a way that I don't think we could have predicted a year ago. So instead of continuing through the acute care facility or or looking into further into emergency departments and patient rooms or clinical work areas, we are pivoting and we're going to start studying clinical workplace and how the design of the building in the space affects our providers and our clinicians. um That's from ah ah an organizational standpoint in healthcare care right now, attraction and retention just just I mean, top priority, we know that 30% of nurses who complete nursing school are going to quit within their first year. So how are we going to design a space that can minimize the the negative effects of working in health care for all of our providers? So that really is the next step is to take this belonging lens and focus it on on the providers and the staff.

CCB: That is totally amazing. and And, Providence and and BBJ are going to move this, this conversation forward

Lauren Cole: Yeah, we are, we're doing ah bulk of the work is going to happen with our internal design team and clinical leadership.

CCB: but

Lauren Cole: But I do think it's important to validate all those findings with third party like NBBJ as we go. And be sure that it's, you know, we want to be able to present findings to the industry, not just tell our own story. And it's so that third party view, that non-biased view that Jessica and the team at NBBJ bring is incredibly important.

CCB: I'm going to say, I think that the experience that many people have in emergency departments is going to make this very, very compelling information and, and a story to listen to. And so many people are, are working on the, the notion of how do we serve all of our patients and providers in the most effective way? um So congratulations. Jessica, any last words you'd like to share from your side of the design seat?

Jessica Radecki: Well, I just would say that one of the little tidbits we got from our research was um talking about the 68% of the survey respondents said that their experience before they crossed over into that direct patient care, so basically that arrival sequence all the way through waiting, their name being called to take back, 68% said that that experience influenced their entire visit experience. So taking a space that is non-revenue generating actually impacts you know the the direct patient care, that whole care encounter. if If they're uncomfortable in that beginning in those beginning stages, it really impacts the bottom line as that patient goes all the way through and reflects on their experience with your organization. And I think that you know is ah is a good case for why this matters um to the organization, number one, but also as a community, who's paying attention? You know what I mean? What healthcare care organizations are paying attention to the individual in their community in such a meaningful way? And so just really thrilled to be part of this project. And this is just a lovely conversation. So thank you very much.

CCB: Well, thank you both. And I'm going to end with a kudos to Providence Healthcare care for tackling such a major issue. Kudos to NBBJ for collaborating on the research and the the movement towards solutions and looking forward to, wow, healthcare care environments designed for belonging, you know, in all of our neighborhoods sometime soon. So thank you so very much for joining the Wonder Podcast.

Jessica Radecki: Thank you.

Lauren Cole: Thank you so much.