Powering the Future of Healthcare

Episode 41

Powering the Future of Healthcare

Curious about the latest thinking in digital healthcare? Want to know how your family might access specific types of health services in the not-too-distant future? Spend thirty minutes with Megan Zweig, COO of Rock Health, and learn what challenges creators and developers are thinking about and working on. The conversation is fast paced, expansive and informative, enjoy!

Featured on the Show
“Yeah, I think that the relationship between digital health and space where health care is delivered is super interesting. To give an example, I was in the Northeast last week, chatting with a health system and they were saying some of the newer clinics they're rolling out, would have smaller waiting rooms because they anticipated that they would be able to be much more efficient in terms of the time between the patient arriving and the patient being shown to a room. That efficiency was going to be created by digital health tools.”


CCB: [00:00:00] Welcome to the ONEder podcast. It's your host, CCB. And today we're having a conversation with yet another amazing individual who represents a lot of innovation in a world that all of us are touched by. We have with us Megan Zweig, who's COO of Roc Health. Megan, thanks for coming to the ONEder podcast.

Megan Zweig: [00:00:25] Thanks so much for having me. Excited to be here.

CCB: [00:00:28] Well, we're thrilled to have you here. We've had other conversations with you, you've been very generous with your time and have been on panel conversations with us. And it's so astonishing, I think, to many of us to understand what Rock Health Health is all about. So I'd love you, first off, before we get to that, tell us, I know when you were five years old, you didn’t say, I want to be COO of Rock Health Health. So what? How did you decide? How did you get, make your way the path to becoming where you are today?

Megan Zweig: [00:01:00] Yes, absolutely. I will say a pivotal point for me was in college. I really had no idea what I wanted to grow up and be, and I started taking some courses on medical ethics and on global health and on health policy. And I always knew that I wouldn't be a clinician. My mom is an athletic trainer. And so she's very tactile. She loves injuries. Like injuries are like exciting to her. And I feel like I'm going to faint. And so I always knew that being a clinician was not for me, but I was really drawn to health care. I was drawn to the challenges, the complexity, but also the intersectionality of it. That it isn't just building the right health care system, it's also thinking about the environment. It's thinking about access to food, it's thinking about mental well-being and all these different components that ultimately contribute to us feeling physically and mentally well. And I think I had an interesting conversation the other day with some of my colleagues on how do we each define health? And it is so intensely personal, but it's so intensely foundational to who we are and how we spend our lives. And so I was really drawn to that and ended up studying public policy, health policy.

Megan Zweig: [00:02:17] I realized that there was a lot of work to be done here in the US, within our health care system. And so started working in the consulting and market research space because I thought it was really exciting to work with, at the start of my career, hospitals, and health systems. Talk to health system executives, understand what challenges they were facing. Talk to a lot of them, so then we could kind of start to source best practices and solutions. And I just loved being at that kind of consultant vantage point of getting to talk to a lot of people, a lot of experts, synthesizing what was working, what wasn't working. And then being able to kind of give collective advice. And honestly, like tapping into the power of the network to learn from each other ultimately made my way to Rock Health. At the time we were wholly based in San Francisco. Now we're pretty distributed but being from Los Angeles wanted to be back in California. And then of course being in San Francisco wanted to be more connected to the venture startup innovation side of health care, just because I saw so much potential. And so that's what that's what brought me to Rock Health.

CCB: [00:03:28] So Rock Health has three arms, and you are Chief Operating Officer. So I want you to kind of describe the three arms and help us understand what your responsibility is within each one of those.

Megan Zweig: [00:03:42] Yeah, absolutely. So our mission is to make health care massively better through the use of emerging technology, largely software and data. We have three different arms in each of them help accomplish that mission in a different way. So the first is we have a venture fund, so we are investors, we are early-stage investors. So we are investing in early-stage digital health companies, typically at the seed or Series A level. So oftentimes these companies do have a product, they may have an early pilot or a couple of early customers, but typically it's a founding team and maybe a couple of others still really figuring out how do they orient their product to what the market needs, what's the right go to market strategy? And we kind of help them with that launch into the market and finding some of those early customers.

We recognize that a lot of those digital health entrepreneurs are selling into the big health care incumbents. So the way that they're going to disrupt and transform the industry is if they partner with Pharma, if they partner with health systems, if they partner with health plans and self-insured employers to change the way that care is being discovered and delivered. So, we decided that actually as part of our business, in addition to investing in the small companies, we wanted to advise the big companies as well. So that's how we created Rock Health Advisory, which is the second of the three legs of the Rock Health stool. And at Rock Health Advisory, we are advising those big, largely health care incumbents. So, all the players I just mentioned, we also work with some retail companies, some big tech companies, because they're all trying to figure out what's the slice of the health care pie that I can participate in.

There's so much opportunity for change. So that's why you see the Googles, the Best Buys, the Walmart's of the world all moving into this space. And so within Rock Health Advisory, we do two things. We do strategy consulting, so deep dive projects to support these big companies on their digital health strategy. And then we also have a membership program. So it's a subscription model. So on an ongoing basis, we're working with about 30 biopharma companies, health systems, health plans to make sure that they are connected into the digital health startup ecosystem, and that we're delivering them insights so that they know what's next when it comes to innovation. So that's the second leg is Rock Health Advisory.

The third leg is Rock Health dot org. So, we actually have a not for profit as well. The mission there is really to make sure that as we're changing the way care is delivered, we're increasingly integrating virtual care and new technologies, that that innovation is reaching all and that it's not just exacerbating these existing health care disparities that we see. And so RockHealth.org is really oriented on how can we support entrepreneurs and innovators in designing especially for underrepresented populations? And then also how do we make sure that funding is flowing in a more equitable way? So they're really focused on how do we provide the support to BIPOC founders, to women founders, to make sure that we're investing in people that have a really important and unique lens on how we can change health care for the better. So those are the three pieces we invest in the little companies, advise the big ones, and then make sure that we're doing it in a way that's equitable.

CCB: [00:07:13] You're making me sweat with all of that work. And I was just I looked at you. I mean, I spent a lot of time on your website, which I'm going to encourage all of our listeners to go check out, because there's so much information and there's so many valuable, valuable notes I'm going to say about kind of what's happening in our world today, and particularly, obviously, the world of health. But how many people are there at Rock Health? It doesn't feel like many.

Megan Zweig: [00:07:36] Question. We're, we're pretty small but mighty. There's about 30 of us at this time.

CCB: [00:07:41] Yeah, that's amazing. So you have a lens into a lot of, a lot of what's coming, a lot of what's needed, a lot of what is existing. And you have a very I'm going to say, it feels so specific in the target audiences that you want to serve, that you want to ultimately you want to be the recipients of the value that Rock Health is developing. And could you talk a little bit about those four audiences I'm going to say. It looks like. let me just give you it looks like as we're talking about digital health, that there are audiences that are underserved, that that certainly in the in the mainstream health care system, we've got a lot going on. And there are ups and downs. But there are there are groups that have not been as what's the right word, have not it's not been as accessible to them. Yeah. So would you talk about that a little tiny bit.

Megan Zweig: [00:08:50] Yeah, definitely. And I think it, I think that the like we've really had to interrogate what accessibility means, especially over the course of the pandemic, because accessibility used to mean that you could get an appointment with your doctor, be able to go to urgent care or the emergency room and physically go to a space where someone is going to be treating you. And so, that type of accessibility completely got up upended in March of 2020. And for the first time, I would say a lot of people and institutions had to think about digital health as not just a nice to have, but a need to have. We had to find ways to connect with patients remotely in their home, and also manage try to manage a lot of conditions and chronic diseases that typically someone would need to physically go into an office space for. We had to try to figure out how do we do that? How do we monitor that and manage those illnesses remotely? Because right now the only people that are really able to come and be served by the traditional health care system have COVID or really other urgent conditions that need to be either quarantined for quarantine purposes or need to be kind of physically in a space where they can operate or something like that. And so, it really opened up, I mean, it did a lot of things. It opened up I think a lot of consumers' perspectives of where and how health care could be delivered. It certainly did the same for providers. And then it also I mean, admittedly, we work in the venture space.

It got a lot of investors thinking about and ultimately deploying a lot more capital into the space of digital health. And so, I think we're now more in the phase of how do we sustain this progress, how do we kind of get to the next level of innovation? Because now we're all more on the same page that things like virtual care, remote patient monitoring, telemedicine are really here to stay and are really powerful tools. I think one thing to your question, though, of like how are those things impacting underserved populations? I think what we're really excited about is that innovators are really tuning into the needs of particular people and populations or people with a particular condition.

So I'll give you an example. You know, primary care historically has been a service that is really kind of geographically attuned. It's very focused on serving a general population in a certain geographic area. And so though, though, a lot of people have had really positive experiences in primary care, it also hasn't necessarily been built with certain populations in mind. And so it's exciting. And with virtual care, you start to see a lot more kind of narrow but personalized use cases. So, I'll give you an example. Maven and Tia are both women's health offerings. So, what if you had a primary care experience that was really tuned to the needs of women? Women go underdiagnosed for a whole host of conditions, things like menstrual pain, uterine fibroids, endometriosis. These are things that women often suffer from for years and they aren't diagnosed.

And so going to an environment that is tuned to these possibilities, that are tuned to the woman's health experience can be really, really important. The same is true for underserved populations, where when we've looked at the research on how the queer population so LGBTQA+, transgender folks, are being treated in the health care system too often and the numbers are just horrific, they are facing verbal abuse. They are sometimes facing physical abuse, and more often than not, they're just not seeing providers that are competent in providing gender affirming care or care for queer folks. And so, we see some virtual care companies popping up again that are really tuned to the needs of that particular population. They are culturally competent providers, and they are they're providing a safe space. And obviously that space is usually the person's home if they're able to do a lot of this virtually. And we actually have seen a lot of uptake among that population of these new telemedicine and wearable and remote monitoring tools that are coming out. So, I'm really excited that if you kind of break down the geographic constraints of like physical locations and health care, it actually creates a business opportunity to build something that's more narrow and personalized. But now you can actually reach that particular population across many states, or maybe even all states in the US, which is what creates like that the business opportunity and the business case for those companies. So, it's super, super exciting to see.

CCB: [00:13:43] I think it's I think it's really lovely that the silver lining on the cloud of the pandemic has been exposing in education and in health care the gross inequities and creating the opportunity for greater attention to be paid and resources to be developed. So that's, that's fantastic. And of course, there's going to be a lot of work to get at that. So we were looking at the nature of the digital health funding and it looks like, and I'm going to say I was looking I look at statistics in lots of different ways. And in a funny way, Q1 is always lower than almost any other quarter, quarter. So, you can get that feeling, but it looks like there's a dip kind of in some of the funding that's happened this year as compared to. And is that a result of so much more being placed in over the pandemic time or is there some something else behind that?

Megan Zweig: [00:14:46] Yeah, the yeah, the dip is real. It's and I actually think that the dip is not just a Q1 dip, like we are going to see when we publish our H1 numbers that in fact there was a lot less funding going into digital health in the first half of this year compared to last year. Last year was the biggest year we've ever seen. I think in my mind it is not a reaction to the digital health market, it is reaction to the broader market. So we see, we see financial crises, international crises that impact the markets. And what's happening is, you have kind of public market exits closing. So we have not seen digital health companies going public this year, whereas we did see a bunch of them last year. SPACs are kind of no longer being used as a vehicle for going public. Even though that was popular the past couple of years, M&A has even slowed down a little bit and valuations are starting to. Anecdotally, it's kind of hard to get precise data on valuations, but anecdotally what we're seeing is that valuations are kind of coming down from where they were last year. That said, valuations were really high last year, and a lot would say a bit too high. The way that we look at the market, though, is we think that the fundamentals are still there.

So I wouldn't view kind of this, this lowering or kind of correction in funding as a signal that, oh, we, you know, we need to pull back from investment in this space. We think that the fundamentals are there. A lot of the solutions have been validated. The regulatory pathways are clear for the solutions that need that. There are clear and emerging go to market strategies. I think though that we're going to see a flight to quality. So, I think investors are going to increasingly scrutinize the companies that they are putting dollars in. And you're just going to see a slightly different take, approach from the innovators. Their investors are going to be giving them advice of, hey, it's you know, it's time to, you know, don't expect to be flush with cash over the next 6 to 12 months. Like really tighten your belts, right? Think about unit economics. I was talking to a founder, and he was saying that maybe before when you had a lot of access to capital last year, they would do things like, hey, go work with a pharma company or go work with a health system. And they would subsidize some of the costs of a pilot to say, hey, we're going to take care of that. We have the cash available, let's prove out our outcomes, and then we'll figure out the right financial arrangement to make this sustainable. He said, you know what? We're not doing that anymore. We need to see the unit economics and profitability from day one of our partnerships, and so they're really starting to bake that in. And so you're going to see like slightly different, a slightly different tone, I think, from entrepreneurs building in this space. We have unfortunately seen some companies with layoffs, kind of proactive layoffs, again, to in the spirit of kind of maintaining a cash runway if they feel like there isn't going to be enough capital available. That said, so there's like that point of view. The other perspective is venture funds raised more money last year than ever before. And when venture funds raise money, they need to deploy that capital. So I actually like I don't think that we're going to see this dip continuing to dip just because VCs have so much capital that they need to deploy over the next few years. And so, and I do think that digital health will continue to be an investment sector, that that remains attractive to them.

CCB: [00:18:24] I want to ask you a question that when I was looking at another number talking about the VC dollars, and the United States is head and shoulders above all other areas. But what's second is China. And so, if you're talking about the global market and some of the challenges that we've seen, again, from the pandemic and supply chain and all of that, what do you think is? What impact is that going to have on the way the way that that innovation continues?

Megan Zweig: [00:18:59] I think I'm not I'm not sure if this is what you were thinking, but it's important to keep an eye on innovation everywhere else. Right. There are so many innovation hubs in China, in Japan, in Israel, in Europe. There's a ton of different hotspots, especially when it comes to digital health. And there are all different types of payment models. I actually, one entrepreneur was saying it's a little bit of a pessimistic, but I think realistic point of view, which is, you know, the best products don't always win in health care the best go to market strategies do. Because as we all know who pays in health care? Is it Medicare and Medicaid and the health plans? Is it the employer? Is it the patient? Like the complexity of that and reimbursement paradigm that we live in, it's pretty complex. It's tough to navigate it. And if you can crack that, you're going to you're going to go far. Those paradigms look pretty different in places like Europe, places like the UK, where there's a single payer system, in China, where there is a lot more government funded health care, but there's a lot of also kind of direct-to-consumer plays. And so, it's interesting to see kind of the ways in which innovation takes hold and can be tested in different, in different environments that require different commercialization pathways. So definitely, definitely something to keep an eye on.

CCB: [00:20:23] I think for a lot of people that that we work with and that listen to the ONEder podcast, this is a more specialized kind of conversation. But, but because it touches all of us, it's so, so intriguing and important and kind of we feel, very vital to have the conversation. Relative to, if I bring it back to our world for just a second, we talk about place and people in place and what the impact is going to be on that. And I will tell you, we know what's happening with large health care systems by virtue of the fact that the schedule or timeline for a major project is ten years. So, you know that’s going to take whatever it's going to take, whatever path that is. We see a lot more going on in retail health and in all of those kinds of environments. And we also see in the life science/biotech, there still is a lot of place investment going on, which kind of speaks to a more optimistic outlook on what that market will continue to do over the next couple of years.

Megan Zweig: [00:21:37] Yeah, I think that the relationship between digital health and space, like space where health care is delivered is super interesting to me. It's, I was, just to give an example, I was in I was in the Northeast last week, was chatting with a health system and they were talking about some of the newer clinics that they were rolling out, would have smaller waiting rooms, because they anticipated that they would be they would be able to be much more efficient in terms of the time between the patient arriving and then the patient being able to be shown to a room. That efficiency was going to be created by digital health tools. So things like being able to fill out forms electronically that maybe you would have previously have filled out when you're in the office, like through a portal. I think what's, you know, that's a step in the right direction of convenience. But I think what is even more convenient and I was chatting with a with a founder yesterday, what he is building is essentially an API so that if you as a patient want your data to be shared with a health system, with a telemedicine company, with a health plan, you can easily kind of sign in and fill out your identity information. But then this API would be able to pull in your insurance information, your medical information from different sources, to feed it to the source that you are going to in that moment.

So let's say that, and this company is called Flexpa, let's say that Flexpa integrated with a particular clinic. And I was going to that clinic, you know, they could send me an email that was like, "Hey, Megan, do you want to get your information pulled from your health plan so we can tell you what's covered your medical history, so you don't have to fill out all those forms like you normally do?" I might say, Hey, yeah, that sounds great. Like I'm going to, you know, I'm going to like just put in my information real quick so that then it can populate and like the power of interoperability. It's, you know, normally I wouldn't bring like interoperability and physical space into the same conversation, but it actually is related. Because if we can minimize that burden on patients, of like having to carry their information, repeat their information every time they go to a new doctor or a new health system or a new clinic, like that actually has an impact on the waiting room. And do you need people in there for a lot longer or are we really easing that kind of transition, that that data transfer? So I'm super, super excited about stuff like that. And I think also like telehealth just brings up so many different questions of how do we create an omnichannel experience so that certain things are happening in the home, everything from at home diagnostics to kind of care that's delivered through a live video to care and advice and coaching that might be delivered asynchronously through something like text. How do we integrate that home experience seamlessly when that person does need to go into a clinic? I think I think it's a super, super interesting question.

CCB: [00:24:56] That just made me think about the again, in the in the place conversation, the use of AR VR, take it to that next level and what might that impact be and where there's a couple of avenues there, where might that be possible or where you seeing it or hearing about it? And then what, what are the impacts of privacy on all of these things, all of these channels?

Megan Zweig: [00:25:25] Yeah, it's a great question. I think VR AR is a really interesting and exciting space. I think a couple things need to happen in the market for that, for that opportunity to really gain traction. Right now, like most people don't have VR headsets, right? We're not we don't we don't just have that like we have a phone. You know, a lot of the digital health, telemedicine and apps are built for our phone. They are built for a tool that the vast majority of Americans already have in their home. The vast majority of Americans don't have VR. I don't necessarily think that that needs to come to fruition, but there definitely needs to be a more accessibility and saturation of the VR headsets becoming available if we're going to see this taking off. And also just figuring out who pays for them, how does the patient get access to it, etc. So part of that kind of market needs to be figured out. But on the opportunity and clinical validation front, there is a ton of exciting things. I mean, creating an immersive environment, especially to help some with a someone with a behavioral health condition is really, really powerful. So, we've seen things around kind of PTSD, we've seen things around pain management. We saw we've also seen use cases from a musculoskeletal perspective. So you can imagine if you're trying to train someone to use their body in new and different ways and do particular exercises, it might be really powerful for them to kind of visualize that. And see that and be guided in an augmented or virtual reality space and that it also kind of gives those the opportunity for sensors. And so then it gives a feedback mechanism for a clinician or a physical therapist to see what is the mobility of that person and are they doing the exercises or are they not doing the exercises? What might be challenging, and so definitely a lot of opportunity. And honestly, I could see I could see these things being used in the home, but I could also see them being used in a clinic. Maybe those VR headsets aren't in people's homes, but they're in, but they're in a place like a clinic or a school maybe if you're trying to do something that's immersive for kids in a place that that people can come in and kind of have their therapy session with it.

CCB: [00:27:43] Oh, gosh, I just had a question. Wait, don't let it go away. The question was.

Megan Zweig: [00:27:48] Oh, you had asked me about privacy?

CCB: [00:27:51] I was asking you about privacy. Privacy. You know what I mean? Clearly. Well, clearly, there are challenges and there are benefits. We know that. I mean, all of us have problems with privacy. So to put it, the health into it, your, that personal information into it is kind of just amplifying that concern to some degree. So, are there are there new innovations or kind of shifts that are taking place in that arena?

Megan Zweig: [00:28:24] Yes. So that that company, Flexa that I mentioned, they give me a lot of optimism about people being able to decide where and how their data is being used. So it creates ease because I can kind of fill out the form and click a button to say, yes, I want all of my information directed here. But what that's also doing is, is it's permissioning it. It's telling me what is being shared, who it's being shared with and what it's going to be used for and what it's going to be used for is important because if I don't permission my data being used in a certain way, it shouldn't be used in that way. And I don't want to be Pollyanna-ish because I think that there are a lot of instances where data about us may not necessarily be protected as health data but can still be construed as health data. So think about all the interactions and Google searches and texts that are on my phone. I mean, conceivably you could scrape and there are companies looking into like, how do I understand mentions Megan's like mental health or maybe her mental health or cognitive health or maybe even her physical health based on the way that she's interacting with her phone, based on her response time, based on the sentiment of the messages that she's sending. And so I do think that we are just producing so much more data as individuals, as a society. And some of that data, even if we don't perceive it to be health data, can be construed in ways that makes assumptions about our health. And then how is that being used? And so I really hope that innovators are always having these conversations and being really intentional with their users of what data are we gathering, how is it being used, and permissioning, permissioning that kind of every step of the way.

CCB: [00:30:13] The other question that I wanted to ask and it kind of keeps coming up in my mind, is the impact on providers, the impact on clinicians, the impact on the scalability of some of the innovations, is kind of multiplying the resources that are required on the provider side. How does that, how is that conversation going?

Megan Zweig: [00:30:41] Yeah, I think it's, there's there are real challenges. I mean, I think providers are, of course, burned out. I think some not all, but some of that burnout is due to the kind of tech that has not been particularly functional or user friendly, let alone like delightful. Like it certainly has not been a delightful user experience. And so. I mean, we see a lot of solutions really trying to solve that problem. I think at the core of it, you need to reduce the cognitive load of clinicians. It is not helpful to deliver a bunch of new data on someone's eating or sleeping habits if we don't have a means of analyzing that, understanding the insight and then figuring out is there an intervention that I can deploy in response. Right? If you haven't thought through all of those pieces, it is useless to kind of integrate more data into the clinician experience. And so in a lot of cases, like even though we're like big data and AI and analytics and population health, I think at the end of the day for the individual clinician experience, like many times, like less is more. And we really need to think about like, you know, you got to like bring the humanity back into health care. And, you know, we're seeing some, some exciting ways to do that. But I think that like part of it is making sure that these tools are really built in concert with the feedback of the users. At the end of the day, that is the best thing that can be done right is let's not build these in a vacuum and assume we know what nurses or physicians want. And that's another thing that I think it's not just relying on one member of the care team; it's not just having a physician centric model. I actually think what's really cool about a lot of these solutions is that it empowers nurses and empowers coaches, makes everyone more efficient and scalable in their efforts. And so I think that kind of moving away from, moving towards a model where those clinicians can really be proactive, whether that rather than reactive is really important. I'll give you an example. We're investors in a company called Marigold. Marigold started with, in the behavioral health space and specifically people with addiction and substance use disorder. They realize that a lot of times those people get treatment in a clinic, then they're discharged, and they resume their life. And there's just a really high rate of recidivism. And so what Marigold does is it gives those people a digital app. It gives them an anonymous community, actually, to protect privacy. But it gives them an opportunity in a virtual space to connect with others that are going through something similar. And then they do use AIML to do a sentiment analysis.

Megan Zweig: [00:33:45] So if I'm in that chat group and I'm saying that I'm having a bad day, maybe I'm saying that I'm considering using again or that I am having, you know, really something serious, maybe even suicidal thoughts. Those words, those sentiments are going to be flagged by the algorithm. And actually, that flag is going to be shared with my care manager. So the care manager, instead of having no idea what's going on with me and maybe just checking in periodically, but not not knowing if they're checking it at the right time, can know, hey, I got to check in with Megan because it seems like just her sentiment in these conversations or maybe I haven't communicated at all. And that's actually a signal that things aren't going well. They can proactively reach out to me. So what I really love are again, the solutions that allow those clinicians or care managers to be proactive, to intervene at the right time, but also like just makes their time more, much more efficient and targeted at the right the right intervention moment. And it's it's that right combination of you, you need the technology in this case, but you also need that person that's going to have the conversation at the right time. So those are the types of things that we we love supporting.

CCB: [00:34:58] Oh, my gosh. Megan, you have shared so much. I my my head is spinning in a good way. And I want to say that we are at the end of our time, but we always like to ask, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you think you just need to share something, something to be excited about, something to be aware of? Any thoughts?

Megan Zweig: [00:35:22] Yeah, I guess just coming back to the space concept, I'm, you know, architecture, space, physical space flows is are not something that I'm particularly deep in. But I've recently read some pieces that have really piqued my interest around just how we create healing environments. What is a healing environment look like, feel like? Are there windows? Is there open air flow? Is there nature? Kind of the things that like feel healing to us but may not always be necessarily conducive to like the medical environment that needs to have all of the beds and tools and tools and isolation and hardware and technology that doesn't always feel healing. So kind of the intersection of those two things is also something that's really interesting to me because I think even though what I hope actually is that we kind of need less physical space for healing because we actually are bringing a lot of the healing and management into the home. But I also think so I think that like how we can, we can create a more healing environment in those spaces and is really, really important. And then as we're bringing more medical things potentially into our home, how do we still make it feel like home as opposed to a place that maybe has now been overrun with hospital beds and medical equipment and that sort of thing? So I think that certainly, like I have I have things to learn from you and your organization when it comes to like how we create the light and healing in the spaces where we're really trying to get people to heal.

CCB: [00:36:57] That's such a great point. The that we're seeing crossovers now between hospitality and corporate. We're seeing hospitality in health care and you're seeing that home that the “hominess”, if you will, in all environments. And so how does that make us feel to bring back to the wellness, if we're going to circle it all back to the intention overall, is to make people be their best wherever they are. And what does that mean? It includes all of the. all of the health. Do you know the guys at Mass Design? Michael Murphy.

[00:37:32] I don't think I do, actually. No.

[00:37:34] I think I should hook you up with them because you’d have a really interesting conversation. Anyway, Megan Zweig, thank you so very much for sharing with us. We really appreciate your time always and your generosity.

Megan Zweig: [00:37:45] Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.