Devin Liddell spends all day thinking about what’s coming next, what the future might hold for his clients, their businesses and each of us. And when he’s talking about mobility, the limitless possibilities range from moving people, materials or information and the impact that may have on place. If you’re interested in the metaverse, vertiports, autonomous mobility, or the Jetsons, don’t miss this podcast!
“And when we think about place and vertiports in the future of smart cities, the future that's in front of us is likely one where we're much more likely to kind of hop and skip across places. So we might use, for example, a series of vertiports if I'm headed to San Francisco from Seattle, the present way I would get there, of course, is that I get on a narrow body aircraft and fly 90 minutes and arrive at an airport, and then I'd transit to downtown. The future of hopping and skipping might mean I'm more likely to get on a series of flying car experiences and hop and skip along the West Coast to San Francisco. And the reason I would do that is that the other great pressure upon us, how do we make mobility carbon neutral?” Devin Liddell, Principal Futurist, TEAGUE
CCB: [00:00:00] Welcome to the ONEder Podcast, this is your host, CCB, with another episode of enlightenment and inspiration, I'm going to say. Our guest today is going to tell us stories and I think expand our minds, but I'm not 100% sure. So, I want to welcome Devin Liddell from Teague in Seattle, Washington. Devin, thanks for joining the podcast.
Devin Liddell: [00:00:24] Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
CCB: [00:00:27] This is very exciting, and I would love for you to explain who you are and how you became what you are today.
Devin Liddell: [00:00:36] I'm the Principal Futurist at Teague. That title sometimes surprises people, that there are Professional Futurists out there, but there for sure are many, many Professional Futurists out there. My job as a Futurist, to be clear, is really just to help design teams, because Teague is a design consultancy fundamentally, to help design teams and our clients anticipate both near-term and far-term changes. So basically, what's going to happen in the next five years? But also, what's going to happen in the next 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now. Of course, it gets much more difficult to anticipate those changes the further the timeline moves down. And it gets into some science fiction territory in a hurry. So, there's always that challenge, and I think in some ways, the other way to, from the outset, I'd like to say this from the beginning, to think about, when you think about foresight or future studies or whatever we want to call it, it's actually in some ways, it's less about predicting the future, and it's more about actually sort of understanding what are the forces that will likely shape the future and then understanding that knowing that, what's the future that we actually want? What's the preferred future that we actually want to set about designing?
I tend to want to shift things into sort of thinking about the future through the lens of a design challenge, not through the lens of “let me predict specifically what will happen”. We can do a lot of heavy lifting in terms of understanding the forces that are likely or going to probably impact the future. And then the task then becomes, what's the future that we want? The reason I mentioned that is that sometimes people tend to fixate on the predictive.
CCB: [00:02:16] Nature of the future. Well, OK, so that's just going to make me ask that question. What do you go to school for when a futurist is your job title?
Devin Liddell: [00:02:26] Well, that's a great question. A lot of futurists who are working presently are self-taught in any number of ways or however they've gone about becoming a futurist. That said, there are now actually a number of academic programs. There's been a longstanding academic program at the University of Houston, been around for many decades, there was a program at the University of Hawai’i at Mānoa. So increasingly, there are a number of academic programs for people who want to either study foresight as an undergrad or as a graduate degree. So those programs definitely exist. And at the same time, as I mentioned, a lot of futurists working presently are self-taught.
CCB: [00:03:07] So taking advantage of the context and the experience that you have and building that into something to support moving forward?
Devin Liddell: [00:03:16] Exactly. And you know, to back up a little bit about my background. My background is in design. And of course, design is a good proxy for the future. The reason I say that is because when we're designing something, whether that's designing an airframe for Boeing, which is our largest client or designing a new piece of electronics for any number of OEMs, the task in front of us is not necessarily about design this thing that's going to going to be going to service tomorrow, you know, meaning like the very next day, there's always a challenge around designing something that will sort of meet the people where they are, when it's introduced. And when you think about the challenges of designing an airframe and a new airplane. Designing a new airplane takes about 10 years, believe it or not, to do so. To design a new car, in comparison, it's about five years. For both of those, the challenge then, of course, is to imagine and anticipate, less imagine, and more anticipate, what is the world going to look like five years from now? What will the world look like in 10 years from now? And how do we go about creating the airplane or car or electronics or service, whatever it is, how do we go about designing that thing that will live its life in that moment, and in the future? The reason I bring that up is because design is a good proxy for understanding the future. And that's understandably probably why a lot of design firms have futurists like myself, and that's certainly the way that I became a futurist is being steeped in the process of design.
CCB: [00:04:46] So there's this big, huge emphasis on collaboration that I'm hearing as you're talking, not only in working with your own colleagues, but also with your clients, your customers. To grab that kind of information that they have and infuse it with the thoughts and the design kind of expertise that Teague will bring.
Devin Liddell: [00:05:17] Absolutely and I think, you know, in some ways I would kind of rail against generalism in some regards when it comes to foresight or the understanding of what the future looks like. I'd argue that there actually does need to be some specialization involved and to your point about collaboration. There's a limit. there's a finite capacity for me to understand inputs into the future. Whether I'm thinking about social inputs, like what are the social forces there that are going to shape the future? But there's also what are the technological forces that are going to shape the future? What are the political? What are the economic? It gets into facets in a hurry that require, (exactly what you're mentioning) require inputs from people who have a deep understanding of that particular subject. So, a good example of that for me is that I tend to be a very good collaborator for highly technical folks because they have a very, very clear understanding of where certain technologies are headed. And what I can then bring to that collaboration is, “oh, I understand that technology”. Now let me actually collaborate with you to understand what the use cases for that technology are, knowing what we know about what maybe society might, for example, look like five years from now. So as a great point that you bring up in terms of like how actually you kind of like marry inputs and those inputs are, in my opinion, fundamentally human at some point.
CCB: [00:06:44] Wow, you're just making me think about, I heard an economist talking last night. Dr. Dambisa Moyo, who is World Economic Forum and she's on the board of Chevron and 3M. But just talking about the impacts of the economy and then her go-to which I thought was really amazing was from an investment perspective, emerging technologies … China. Ok, so I'm going to have to learn Chinese, but also, you know, get more tuned into the emerging technologies. Which brings us to any number of the projects that you have been working on and the first one that I wanted to ask you about because it starts to broaden. She also was talking about the impact that it can have on education and the deficit that we have currently and what emerging technologies might be able to do to support that. So, the article that you wrote on aging and autonomous mobility, if you will. I loved how many different angles you included in your kind of musings. So, talk about, if you will, the aging and autonomous vehicles is kind of one area, but to get you into that mobility conversation. What's happening?
Devin Liddell: [00:08:12] Most of my work is focused on some aspect of mobility and that can take a lot of different shapes. It probably goes back, I'll overuse the word proxy, but it goes back to what I was saying about what's a proxy for understanding the future and mobility is a good proxy for understanding the future, how we move around. How we move around and why we move around are good. Answering those questions are good ways of revealing our very human motivations. And so, when you bring up the piece I wrote around aging in the age of autonomy. One of the reasons I wrote that piece was that we've spent a lot of time, and this happens with emerging technologies. I'd say, even in general, is that we tend to think about kind of the whiz bang features of new technologies and how that will change life for mainstream audiences. We don't arguably spend enough time thinking about how these new technologies might subvert or enhance or transform the everyday living experiences for marginalized communities, for communities that were not thinking about it as much. And one of the reasons I was interested in talking about autonomy through the lens of aging is that when people age, one of the things that actually happens to them typically in our current scenario is that they lose the capacity to move around on their own, so they might lose their driver's license, that might be because they have eyesight trouble or any number of age related reasons that impact their mobility, but that change is often very, very transformative in terms of how they experience life.
Devin Liddell: [00:09:56] And it can be very alienating. It can be very isolating. And so when you think about the promises of autonomy. One. Yes, it's great, it's important to think about what an autonomous vehicle will look like through the lens of like how we'll work and watch movies in it. Great. And there're plenty of people who are focused on that. I would prefer to focus on other things, including what these technologies might mean for older citizens. And what it does mean, is that they actually can live very different lives than they would otherwise live right now when they lose mobility. It gets into some fantastical scenarios which you read about along the lines of like, hey, actually, when it comes to our snowbird populations in the U.S., people who move from the northeast to the southeast in a seasonal pattern, maybe actually we'll need all new types of vehicles where people actually move in their vehicles. They don't live in homes anymore at all. They actually just move in vehicles that autonomously relocate from the northeast to the southeast in seasonal ways. We're right now in December, of course, and in the thrust of the holidays. And so, people are probably wrestling with the arrival of in-laws and so forth, might be that in the future, your in-laws actually just arrive in an autonomous vehicle that is more akin to kind of like a mobile apartment. And they just are happy as clams right out in front of your home and they're not taking a bedroom.
CCB: [00:11:21] Well, and then you wired it as a smart home. And so, it could be connected for telemedicine and telehealth and be absolutely understanding what's transpiring in your day-to-day existence that you may not. Even so, you dove into all of these different areas, which are kind of mind-boggling, but they're just not so far away, they're just like that. You have that next step of, “oh that makes sense”.
Devin Liddell: [00:11:50] Exactly. And I think one of the things that also sometimes comes up when it comes to foresight or future studies is that there are often forks in the road when it comes to either utopian or dystopian outcomes. And that goes back, that tracks back to what I was mentioning earlier about kind of like isolating what is the preferred future? What's the utopia we want compared to the dystopia that we don't want? And when we think about new technologies like autonomous vehicles, there are use cases that actually aren't that fantastic, right? I mean, one of them actually goes against what I would just mentioning around kind of the prospect of aging in the age of autonomy is that autonomous vehicles could actually have an isolating effect. We just move around on our own in these sorts of one- or two-person robot taxi pods, and we don't actually have experiences of community that we currently have in other modalities. So, knowing that like, hey, this is a potential dystopia, is important as well because it helps us actually head it off, it helps us design away from it. And that's what I was mentioning in terms of preferred futures.
CCB: [00:12:59] Ok, so you're in the mobility conversation and in reading some of your writing, there are words that are not in the common lexicon at this moment in time. And I wanted to have you talk about vertiports as the beginning of that journey.
Devin Liddell: [00:13:20] Yes. Awesome. Vertiports, to back up here a second, or to be clear about it, vertiports are the piece of infrastructure that we will use to deploy. This is another technical term, but we'll figure it out. I'll come back to this in a second. What's currently called electric vertical takeoff and landing vehicles? These are, that's a fancy acronym, sometimes called eVTAL is an overly technical term for what we would colloquially call flying cars. That's what those are. And flying cars is, of course, a form of mobility that we've been pining for, for 50 or 60 years. There actually are Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazine covers from the fifties that show people moving around in speculative futures what it would look like to have flying cars. This is The Jetsons, of course, right? I mean, The Jetsons had flying cars, so we've been wanting flying cars for quite a while. The good news or the bad news, depending on what you think about flying cars, is that we will have flying cars in short order in the next two to five years. There will be cities on Earth that have some sort of service of electric vertical takeoff and landing vehicles. And to your question about vertiports, vertiports are the buildings that those vehicles will fly in and out of. And it's going to be a very different experience than what we currently associate with the kind of flying experience through contemporary airports, partly because they're going to be integrated into urban fabrics. So, a vertiport is much more likely to be in a downtown location next to your office building than it is going to be like closer to an airport, which is often farther away. We also weirdly enough, we'll have to know what people weigh when people get on board them. The reason we need to know what people will weigh when they get on board these vehicles is that they're currently projected to be kind of somewhere between two and six passengers per vehicle. And so, they have to be load optimized.
So, we need to know what people weigh so we can seat them appropriately for the capabilities of the vehicle. I mentioned that because that requirement actually influences how vertiports will operate. And one of the things that I speculate will happen is that we will build into vertiports the ability to weigh people without them having to step on a scale. So, this will not be a process of them checking into a flight for an eVTAL service and then having to step on a scale. Instead, we will move through these vertiport buildings and computer vision, and embedded scales and other technologies will actually arrive at an acceptable estimate of our weight just as we move through the space. The reason I mention that is because that actually could influence actually how airports of the future even work. To that, as we think about how we move through security, our current scenario of kind of queuing up for every single aspect of the travel experience. And, you know, if you think about going to an airport right now, it's essentially a series of queues, a series of lines. When we think about what the experience of that type of building will be like in the future, there are a lot of technologies that are already available to us that will transform that experience away from a series of queues and more towards a much more beneficial kind of just walk from one place to another into the vehicle.
CCB: [00:16:58] There're these two competing or actually there's probably multiple competing thoughts in my head. But there's the human element of this, like how are people going to absorb and acclimate to these different types of activities? There's the, gosh, there's the security aspect, which I know I've read things about, you know, already looking at, kind of through sensors and things and facial recognition, et cetera, et cetera, which also gets, you know, kind of impacts back to the human experience. But then there's also place, and you reference this a couple of times. That place changes more slowly than technology, obviously. So how do you think, how are you looking at how people are going to feel in these experiences? But then also, how are the places going to support them?
Devin Liddell: [00:17:57] It's a great question around place, and it's actually probably one of the things that gets sort of under looked. I mean, like, you're right, we tend to like over index on kind of, as I said, like kind of the whiz bang-ness of the tech itself and not think about how our spaces will have to account for those technologies. And I mean, one of the ones that I'd mentioned right off the bat, especially on the topic of vertiports, is that right now our experience of aviation is actually a bit estranged from the city. So when we think about the future of the city, it's actually probably very different from what we have right now, where if you're going to have an experience of flying, if you're going to get on board a 737, for example, and fly from one city to the next, you typically, at least in North America, you typically have to actually transit to an airport that is often very far away from the city center. Vertiports actually will challenge that and subvert that kind of way of moving about and bring aviation closer to the city center. And when you think about things that, actually kind of like what that does for the fabric of the city, it gets into some really interesting territory. One of the ways that I have often explained it is that we have done a lot of work to kind of like shift human mobility away from kind of hubs and spokes where we would go like in a hub and spoke would be like if we go to a subway station or Grand Central, for example, and then we transit and then we transfer to another train and go to where we're going. Most mobility has shifted to point-to-point. So, we've done that in air travel, and we've done that in vehicles. Uber and Lyft are a classic example of like it picks you up in front of your house and takes you wherever you're going. And that shift from point-to-point has been pretty pervasive across all sorts of ways of moving about in the air and on the ground. And when we think about place and vertiports in the future of smart cities, the future that's in front of us is likely one where we're much more likely to kind of like what I describe as kind of hop and skip across places. So we might use, for example, a series of vertiports if I'm headed to say, for example, San Francisco, San Francisco from Seattle, the present way I would get there, of course, is that I get on a narrow body aircraft and fly 90 minutes and arrive at an airport, and then I'd transit to downtown. The future of hopping and skipping might mean that I'm more likely to get on a series of flying car experiences and kind of hop and skip along the West Coast to get to San Francisco. And the reason, by the way, I would do that and it's something that I want to make sure we talk about is that the other great pressure, the big pressure that's sort of upon us is how do we make mobility carbon neutral? How do we make it carbon free? And that's what's going to influence transportation in a big way. But you're back to your question about vertiports and placemaking when we introduce these types of infrastructure into cities, they change the shape of cities, right? They change how we experience these cities and vertiports are no different in that regard. So how we actually end up using flying cars to move from one place another have really, really fantastic positive use cases, like I mentioned earlier, you know, utopian use cases and they have some dystopian use cases. A dystopian use case, really quickly to mention it. is that rich people fly around above and poor people toil below on the ground. And we need to figure out ways to bring vertiports into cities that are equitable and accessible for all sorts of people to move around and get to where they're going and where they want to go and why they want to go.
CCB: [00:21:40] That might take me down a tangent about asking legislatively, you know, who owns any of this, but I'm not going to go there. Because I actually want to go back to place and say, OK, now let's bring in the metaverse and talk about what does place mean when things become non-physical.
Devin Liddell: [00:22:09] It is a gnarly question, isn't it? Yes. And for listeners who are not familiar with the metaverse, the prospect of the metaverse is essentially a melding of the physical and the digital realms into what I would describe as kind of like a new experience of the internet. And there won't be, by the way, a sort of pre-metaverse and a post-metaverse kind of world, or before and after kind of moment. We're already kind of like getting into blurry experiences of what the metaverse is. Anyone, and it's almost probably almost everyone who has experienced a Zoom call, or a Teams call or so forth has started to sort of inch into the metaverse, if you will, because you are melding the physical and digital, you know, like where you're in a meeting room, even though it's not actually a real room, right? You're in a digital meeting room and you're meeting with colleagues that way. If you think about the prospect of adding 10, 20 years to technologies like Zoom and Teams and so forth, you start to get into some really interesting territory that challenge why we would move around at all. Actually, to be really blunt about it, the prospect of business travel, in my opinion, is actually fairly imperiled because when you think about pre-COVID, how we actually moved about for the purposes of business travel in hindsight, looks pretty inefficient and borderline kind of dumb, right? and wasteful, right? Wasteful from a carbon standpoint, wasteful from a time standpoint. Does it make sense to fly from Seattle to San Francisco for the purposes of a 90 minute in-person meeting and spend 12 hours to do it? No, it actually doesn't make much sense to do that. The metaverse will further subvert that in the sense that being able to meet with someone in a digital room that actually approximates in a lot of ways a physical room will further challenge why we move around at all. This, of course, goes right back to your question around place because it challenges how we've oriented our cities around our activities. Even if you think about the current kind of structure of the city, if you will, is mostly oriented around people transiting from outside the city core into the city core for the purposes of working. And the metaverse is actually going to challenge, and COVID, frankly, has already done so already, right? We're already seeing challenges to like what is the shape of the city and this may be unsatisfying to listeners, but it is a big unanswered question as to what does place mean in the future and what will our real-life 3D spaces mean to us? And what will they do for us? And even where will they be? Right? I mean, we've already seen things like people relocating to smaller communities away from corporate headquarters because they can, because the current, even the current crop of technologies allows them to do so. Again, add 10, 20 years to that and you end up with a really, really serious challenge to what a city even is. So, lots of really juicy, unanswered questions around what that looks like.
CCB: [00:25:24] Gosh, yes, indeed. It brings me back to the beginning of the conversation, really, that we didn't talk about, which is how all of this is going to impact education and how are young minds going to, I know they're already living in it, but what are we thinking is going to happen that will support this or create obstacles? I don't know.
Devin Liddell: [00:25:54] It's a fantastic topic, of course, and it goes back to place as well. I mean, it's a common thread. I mean, if you think about even like what we've seen occur during the pandemic, one of the things, of course, that comes right up right away when it comes to education is equitable access. So how do we actually create equitable access? We've all heard narratives during the pandemic of things like people who don't have internet access or fast internet access at home, driving to their local libraries and, you know, being parked out front so they can get access to Wi-Fi simply for the purposes of remote learning, right? So, there's all kinds of like equitability issues, in my opinion. I think when we dwell on higher education for a second, and that's not necessarily my specialty, you know, we have sort of paradoxical sort of motivations around some of these things. One of the narratives I remember hearing during the pandemic was that someone from abroad had enrolled at Cambridge and then opted to un-enroll until the pandemic was over, partly because the place of Cambridge was deemed so intrinsically integrated into the actual experience of Cambridge, and you could not parse apart Cambridge from Cambridge, the place, right? And so, a digital replica if you will, of that place is not acceptable. There are other scenarios where maybe that isn't the case, right? And you'd be perfectly happy to attend a university or college from an online or a remote standpoint. And per my point, earlier add 10 to 20 years to some of these technologies and being in a hall without actually being in the hall may not actually be as much of an issue as we think of currently. So probably lots of unanswered questions in that space as well.
CCB: [00:27:54] Well, there's so much about increased access to lots of elements of our living, of our everyday experience and broader access. But there's this constant, and I know people ask me that question all the time. Well, yeah, but what's it going to feel like? What are people, how are people going to feel and what are those relationships going to be like? Because we don't know how to kind of conceive of what those relationships might be. The old way of, you know, you couldn't have online meetings until you actually knew somebody and then you could manage through that. But now it's like, I don't know half the people that I've met online, and that I have meetings with, and you know, you become more and more accustomed to it. But there's also that, I'm just writing an article about the K-12 experience and why there's so much support to mental health and all of these things, because the learning continuity has suffered, and the social development has suffered. So how are we going to manage the balance? It's just fascinating.
Devin Liddell: [00:29:10] Oh, totally. I mean, you know, that's another thing that comes up. I think frequently with just technology in general is that they sometimes pose questions to us about what it means to be human and what we want from the human experience. I mean, we haven't talked about artificial intelligence yet, but that's going to be another topic, of course, that poses very deep questions about how we interact with other humans, what our expectations for that, what is and again, what does that even mean to be human? Going back to the K-12 example, you brought up the internet in, of course, very broad brushstrokes is, you could argue, is one of the things it does exceptionally well is that un-couples place from activity. You know, that's why we have online shopping, that's why we have online education. But the things you brought up to in terms of like socialization and those harder to pin down subjects, you know, those are important, too. So, they pose these questions about like if we're not going to get those benefits from here, how do we get them or, to your point, do we actually know now that we have to get them in person? We have to get this experience through an actual kindergarten, for example. Those are again, those are like, very compelling unanswered questions around that pose like some really fascinating questions. Yeah, I mean, I'm now in your space to where it's like I'm confronted by all of these unanswered questions myself. And it's like, well, yeah, there's a lot to ruminate on there.
CCB: [00:30:52] There sure is. Ok, so we're kind of winding up our time, which is really unfortunate because I could just sit here and listen to you for a really long time. But the question that I would ask you to kind of share with us as a parting gift is how do you see the integration of your expertise, your type of expertise going across greater industries? Because I feel like we're on the West Coast and there's a great deal of technology and there's a great deal of activity that makes it much more accessible. But knowing there are other industries and there are other parts of our country that are just not moving at the same pace, how do you see that?
Devin Liddell: [00:31:39] Yes, it's in some ways it's too bad that it's not a skill sort of more hardwired into our organizations, you know, understanding near-term and far-term disruptions or changes or transformations, whatever we want to call them should actually be seen, in my opinion, of course, I'm deeply biased, should actually be seen as kind of like the basics of strategic hygiene, right? I mean, this should be considered part and parcel to being a successful, competent, thriving organization in any category. You know, it doesn't matter what kind of industry that's in. And the reason I say that, of course, is that we're super familiar with all sorts of industrial stalwarts that seemingly kind of disappear, right? I mean, you know, would anyone who is in a Sears, you know, in the fifties have predicted that Sears would be gone right? And would anyone in line to get some licorice after picking out a movie at their local Blockbuster have predicted that they would no longer be around? So, we know, of course, that prospect that the world may not need us in the future in the same way that it needs us today should always be actually front of mind for all of us again in any kind of category that we're working. And there are, of course, ways to do that, right? I mean, so much of this you don't need to have a professional futurist necessarily on staff to do this. These, I like your word earlier, like these musings around what the future looks like. And one of the things that I tended to spend quite a bit of energy on as a futurist is working with design teams to create what we describe as artifacts from the future. What they are is nothing more than actually just sort of like essentially a photograph of what the future looks like a visual representation, not a bullet point list, not a PowerPoint around what kind of future or forces might shape our future, an actual sort of photorealistic artifact of what the future looks like five years from now, 10 years from now, whatever the time frame is, when we look at those types of artifacts, that's when we're confronted with. Ok, if that's what the world looks like, what do we need to do to make sure that we meet the needs of the people living in that world? Right? And there's a there's a humility, by the way, involved in that, and a lack of humility to mention, by the way, if you don't think the world will change. So much of what I've just mentioned is just about, like, how do we bring foresight? How do we bring an understanding of the future into kind of like an everyday conversation around what the future or what we'll need to do from just a basic strategic hygiene standpoint? And the reason I'm dwelling on it, and I'll stop here in a second. But the reason I bring to bring this up is, I would argue that a lot of organizations get stuck in the trap of thinking that the world will always need them the way they need them right now. And the reason it's such a trap is that actually culturally, from even just like a cultural standpoint, suggesting otherwise can almost feel verboten like, oh my goodness, how could you, that is our number one selling product! How dare you suggest that it may not be the breadwinner for us, you know, five years from now? But it's true. I mean, you know, it's actually in all likelihood a distinct probability. And yet we get stuck in that trap of not wanting to think about that not being true.
CCB: [00:35:18] Well, that whole nature of, you know, very focused, very tunnel kind of vision as compared to scenario thinking. And where did that start and where does it stop and who is rewarded for it? And you just see, yeah, you see a lot of that going on. Anyway, I'm going to say thank you very much. Devin Liddell. I know you are a prolific writer, and you can be found on Fast Company. Are there other locations that we should think about looking for some of your thoughts?
Devin Liddell: [00:35:47] Certainly, most of my writing is currently for Fast Company. So definitely check out Fast Company for sure. I've also done writing for other publications as well. So, if you go to Teague.com, you can definitely find links to those as well.
CCB: [00:36:04] Excellent. Thank you so much, Devin. The people in the ONEder podcast world are going to be delighted to hear about you and what you're up to. And the ONEder podcast is available on all those podcast streaming services so you can find it anywhere. And I'm going to say thank you and we will talk again soon.