CCB: [00:00:15] Welcome to the ONEder podcast. It's your host, CCB, and today's conversation is going to be one of our annual fun conversations with our ONEder Grant Award winners. And just in case you're not familiar with the ONEder Grant, it's a program that One Workplace offers financial resources to the design community to support new or evolving research into how design influences the human experience. And last year's award recipients were asked to come at an approach that dealt with wellness, and it was a very broad theme. So, we have three really interesting conversations. Today, we're going to be talking with Lisa Baumbach and Charles Fadem, and I'm going to ask them to introduce themselves, Okay. Lisa, thank you for joining us.

Lisa Bambach: [00:01:05] Thank you for having me. My name is Lisa Baumbach, and I'm a designer, and my background is in strategy, experiential design and design education. And I'm actually currently getting my master's at the University of Washington.

Charles Fadem: [00:01:17] And I'm Charles Fadem. I'm a senior designer at Interior Architects. We are a global commercial interior design company, and I have a background over 20 years in the architectural design industry commercial, residential, multifamily, you name it. Now, I specialize in amenity design at IA.

CCB: [00:01:37] Oh that's exciting. So, you know, one of the things I want to remind our listeners is that there is a website for the ONEder grant, and there the full research will be available. So you can reference that. So there's all there are all sorts of interesting I'm going to say not new words, but new ways of saying things that, that Charles and Lisa worked on in this project. And so you're probably going to want to be able to reference back. I'm also going to say, there's some pretty amazing visuals that are included. So you're going to want to you're definitely going to want to go look at those. So, Charles, tell us about your project. I haven't said the title yet.

Charles Fadem: [00:02:18] Uh, the title of our project was The Ecotonal Office. And, uh, Lisa and I sat down and started thinking about wellness in the workplace and specifically the approach to biophilia, so adding natural elements to commercial interior design. And it occurred to us at a certain point that we might be doing things backwards by adding, planting, uh, organic geometry into offices. We're doing perhaps little more than harm reduction. There's a lot of research surrounding the fact that commercial offices, buildings make people sick, unwell at the office. So, what if we inverted it? What if we, instead of bringing biophilia into the office, we took the office and moved it out very far out into the natural environment.

CCB: [00:03:03] So you're flipping the design over, but you're also leveraging a challenge that was presented to us. So talk a little bit about the why behind why now?

Charles Fadem: [00:03:18] Well, uh, we're entering this post-Covid era where there was a previous reason for everybody working at home is that it wasn't necessarily safe to be together in the office. And then all of those limitations lifted and we were allowed to come back to the office. And then all of a sudden people were hesitant. And there were these questions, why aren't people coming back? What is it they're looking for? And, uh, the grant prompt was well-timed - wellness in the workplace. It started to become revealed that people weren't necessarily feeling all of that well in the office, but they were feeling much better and safer at home, and that was part of our earliest conversation between Lisa and I. Was, what exactly is it making people so much more comfortable at home other than the obvious? And what are people more productive at home? Are they not what makes people comfortable while they work? So these were a lot of the initial questions that Lisa and I were asking of each other.

CCB: [00:04:11] So then I want to ask the question who on the team? There's so much research and there's so many references in this, in your document that it's pretty it's pretty compelling to be able to kind of dive down deeper if you have that interest. But there is the whole senses, sensory conversation around who we are as human beings and where do we feel most comfortable. I thought that was that's a great starting point to say why?

Charles Fadem: [00:04:37] Mhm.

CCB: [00:04:38] Anybody want to?

Charles Fadem: [00:04:39] Might be Lisa's ballpark.

Lisa Bambach: [00:04:41] So as we were thinking about where people want to work there's this kind of unlimited flexibility. Now that you know Charles mentioned people are working from home but they're also working at cafes. They're wanting to sit outside and be in the outdoors. And we were thinking about the sensory experience of the sound outside, the light that you get exposed to, the cool breezes that you get exposed to when you're able to be in these environments. And you don't actually get that in the office, it's very simulated in the office, we tend to kind of close our windows and keep everything temperature controlled to have a very neutral environment. And we that kind of made us think, well, are these variations in the environment, these sensory variations, the thing that people are craving and the thing that people are seeking that would make them feel more well?

CCB: [00:05:28] And even going to that point about the relationship with nature, if you stepped back to where did humans come from? And you do have all those great references that lots of people like to talk about, the savanna and all of those early human interactions with space and place.

Lisa Bambach: [00:05:48] Right. We looked a bit into the prospect and refuge theory, and we used that in the office design all the time. You know, people like to have their back, perhaps to a booth space so they can look out amongst the room that they're in. And we actually were able to translate that in our work. We started noticing that as we set up our own ecotonal office in the environment, we were positioning it towards vistas and even just that viewpoint of being able to see the landscape before us also enhances our experience psychologically.

CCB: [00:06:17] OK, I'm gonna ask one other question before I ask, before we go into kind of, the methodology. But the question that I had was about productivity and where does productivity and wellness, you know, converge from the point of design?

Charles Fadem: [00:06:33] Yeah, so the concept that people, quote unquote, people are more productive at the office. There's a long story as to why that is. And you have to look at the modern commercial office, the MCO, we use that a lot in our in our research paper. And the modern commercial office evolved out of the need for people to converge around a source of information initially. Whether it was documents at first or card catalogs or file drawers, and then it evolved into computers and servers, and then all of a sudden the computers got smaller and then the paper disappeared, and then the computers got much smaller, and everything's in our pockets. And all of a sudden, we've created this giant infrastructure, these big, tall boxes that we all go to work in that were designed for technology that's disappearing. And productivity all of a sudden has very little to do with your proximity to a source of information. The information is everywhere. And so now productivity and wellness can find a balance. And in fact, some of the research is showing that the more wellness factors you are providing, the more productive people are.

CCB: [00:07:44] It's going to make me ask a question. I'm writing a note to myself at the end. Okay. So, so we're going to go into the methodology that you batted about before you decided exactly what you're going to do for your field research.

Lisa Bambach: [00:07:57] Yeah. So, this is the first time that the ONEder Grant has been opened up to the state of Washington. So part of our idea was, how do we make this the most Washington celebratory project we can? And part of that was being able to explore all of the ecosystems we have here in Washington. So we picked four locations to go to in order to have that breadth of different environments. We went to the temperate areas. We went into an alpine area, the desert and even the rainforest. And when we went to these environments, we simulated a mock workday. And this workday was composed of us in the morning, setting up our site. We had lunch built in, of course, because you need to have some good snacks and energy to keep going. And in the afternoon, we set ourselves up with both digital and analog tasks that were done individually and collaboratively. So, these were not us doing work for our jobs necessarily to simulate the workday. We were testing, you know, can I project in the outdoor environment? Can I connect to the internet? Can I send an email? Can I have a video call, Charles, as I'm on my phone and he's on his laptop. So, it was more about identifying which tasks could be done in these environments and seeing if we were able to use existing technology to support achieving these tasks.

CCB: [00:09:20] Okay, so I'm picturing the map and the locations and and the packing of.

Charles Fadem: [00:09:29] Yes, there was lots of packing involved.

CCB: [00:09:33] Yeah, I understand help us all understand a little bit more. You've selected your sites and you understand what you want to accomplish, but what are the tools that you need?

Charles Fadem: [00:09:42] Yeah. So that's where the equipment comes into play. And there was a lot of it. And so you know the big challenge here is, you know, technology loves buildings and controlled environments. And it doesn't love the outdoors. Humans are meant to be outdoors all the time. Technology, computers not so much. And so, it was surprising at first actually how much technology was available and affordable to enable us to do all of this work. There were affordable mobile solar panels that easily plugged into generators. There were mobile Wi-Fi routers that were inexpensive, that were fully rugged, meaning it could perform in any environment. Heat. Cold. Wind. Wet. The caveat to all of this, especially the affordable component, is that your typical laptop can't just go out onto Mount Rainier, put it in the sun, and then do a day of work. Your average commercial grade laptop is going to fry itself in 20 minutes. Panasonic makes the leading and one of the only fully rugged laptops available on the market. Very, very popular with field workers all over the world, military,, first aid scientific researchers. This is a fully rugged laptop. You can throw it against a wall, you can throw it down on a waterfall, you can kick it. Anything can happen to this thing and it'll function. And it is pricey. And so that was one of the most expensive components and necessary components in order to do the research. And that's kind of a big caveat, because the rest of our equipment was pretty readily available, whether it was meant for camping or for research regardless. But the laptop is one thing that was absolutely necessary to do that. And so, we wanted to make sure that was very conspicuous in the document of our research. Is that you can't just decide you're going to pick up and go and work out in the middle of nowhere, some sort of intervention, thought and strategy has to go into it first.

Lisa Bambach: [00:11:40] And even when we were considering the laptops, we interviewed a few people who do field research. And they said humidity is also a big issue, not just the temperature exposure. So, as we were thinking about taking, you know, our work laptops into the rainforest, we were like, yeah, we're definitely going to invest in a rugged laptop because we know that our own equipment wouldn't be able to handle those extremes.

CCB: [00:12:02] So I can anticipate that there's like a wish list that you developed as you were doing your field work to talk to technology providers et cetera. et cetera. About different, different iterations of kind of existing equipment. So, in your research document, you have excellent indexes of what the materials were, what the equipment was, for which locations, and which, what did the sites look like. But talk a little bit about that, that experience of the different sites getting out there.

Lisa Bambach: [00:12:40] That was part of our methodology in the sense that our analog task was actually us documenting our experience. So, we started out by, before even going, documenting our assumptions of what the experience in each environment would look like. And that was everything from like what the weather might be, how much, how comfortable we might be, if we might feel stress, or even to the point of, you know, what would the layout be? What do you think it's going to be based on the weather? And then once we got onto the site, we would document how we were feeling in the moment. And at the end of the day, we would ultimately document the floor plan that we had. And as we were going through all our tasks, all of the technology, like you mentioned, we were documenting, if we set it up, if we needed it, if we used it, if it malfunctioned. We have some pretty good malfunctioning stories we could share with malfunctioning.

CCB: [00:13:31] Sure, share malfunctioning (laugh).

Charles Fadem: [00:13:33] Talking the other day about how we thought our first location, which was temperate at Cle Elum Lake in the center of Washington State, was going to be the easiest. And I think everything that could have possibly gone wrong went wrong on that trip. Everything was difficult to set up. Some of our equipment was broken in the package. Our car got stuck in the sand. There was smoke in the air, and our eyes were watering because the air was literally noxious, like it was a rough day. It was a really rough day. We broke, my God, I think I'm even forgetting stuff. We broke our tables, we broke our umbrellas. The GoPro that we got to to record video overheated constantly. So, we were throwing it in our cooler and a bunch of ice to cool it down. But in a way, it was, it was such a blessing because we wanted to break everything. We wanted to find all the pain points, to find out what's keeping us from being able to be productive. And man, did we get some data, especially on that first trip.

Lisa Bambach: [00:14:34] And it was also very interesting because we had a very impromptu can change our location, our first location being temperate, we were like, oh, it's the most comfortable, the least humid, the least rainy, you know? And because we wanted to explore all of the great features in Washington, we had picked the North Cascades National Park as our first destination. But there was actually a wildfire in that location, so as Charles mentioned, the air was really smoky all over the state, and we had to select a new location to try to distance ourselves from the origin of the fire. So that was also a new variable that we hadn't considered in our...

CCB: [00:15:09] I'm going to say, you know, as the the Indiana Jones ONEder Grant. It's it's fascinating to think of. Well, I don't know that we've had any other in five years. I don't know that we've had anyone actually, you know, do as much trekking as you all did. But the it's curious to think about how wonderful it is that you've done this research and actually that it allowed you to do this because I can't I can't see a whole lot of organizations going, yeah, okay. You know, Charles. Lisa. Go on. Yeah. Take off a couple of, you know, a while and go do this. But but it it starts to bring up the question which I had written down like who, who are the people that, that you're thinking are going to be, you know, interested in doing this? Because I don't think it is for everybody.

Charles Fadem: [00:15:54] No, there are a couple of markets and they're very specific. There was a chart. I wish I could show an audio format very early in our chart. I think we call it the eco tunnel opportunity chart, and it shows every single place on planet Earth where you could possibly do some work. And on one side of the chart you have the commercial office, pretty obvious, and all the way on the other, you've got the center of the Pacific Ocean or, uh, you know, the top of Mount Kilimanjaro, anything short of the moon. And we create categories for every single place where someone could do work. And so, there are markets, right, there are markets that are revealed as we went through this striation of the different places where work is done. And there is the, we call it the Ecotonal shift or the Ecotonal Opportunity zone, which is urban green space, Semi-rugged space, remote green space, national parks, fully rugged spaces which are sort of scientific research. So there are military applications obviously, soldiers in the field are doing work out in the field without traditional urban infrastructure. There are scientific researchers such as NOAA, who are going out and gathering physical and observational data at sites. There are construction workers out in the field. There are people fixing solar panels in the desert. Et cetera. Et cetera. EMS workers. So, there's this massive market full of field, field workers. And they are the people who use these Panasonic Toughbooks. And they have very, very little other design support to do their work. They're balancing their laptops on fences and on their laps in the middle of the desert, uh, if they're so lucky to do so. And, so there's this really this, uh, this whole zone, this ecotonal opportunity zone where work is taking place with relatively no infrastructure support.

CCB: [00:17:45] I also thought it was interesting that the pain index fun. Forget it. I said I.

Lisa Bambach: [00:17:53] Was going to jump in after you.

CCB: [00:17:55] Do it because I was like, I saw pain and it said fun, but you go.

Lisa Bambach: [00:17:59] Great. So, Charles did a great job of kind of addressing the actual markets that this would, uh, work towards. But when we were designing our conceptual solution, we had to think of who is the individual that might use this. And we were also considering like if. A company wanted its employees to be able to go out and, you know, an average knowledge worker would be able to go out into this environment. Who would they be and what is their tolerance for, as you mentioned, pain. But we were actually using the Fun Scale, which is a term that comes from the rock climbing community, and it talks about how fun is just like a classic fun or fun in retrospect, like it might not be fun in the moment, but looking back on it, and that's really what we were trying to capture in our methodology. So, I mentioned that we kind of anticipated experience might be we documented the experience during and then a week later, we also reflected upon our experience to say what you know, in the moment. I might have been really uncomfortable, I mean, as Charles mentioned, my eyes might have been burning from the smoke. But as I look back on that experience, am I fondly remembering it? And that memory is, like, really important to that, not only from like, the just positive experience of it, but we also in our notes, we kept seeing like, oh, I kept writing about you, like I kept bonding with you as a colleague. And, that really became a basis for the design that we made as well. So not only we defined our fun type, we did fun type one because we didn't want people to go through a grueling experience. We didn't want them to only enjoy it retrospectively. But we also made this concept for a four-person team because we really wanted teams to go out together into the environment and share this experience with one another.

CCB: [00:19:47] We just think about a lot of that team building activities that they do take you outside and they do put you in. I'm going to say, you know, maybe the pain level two. I know you want.

CCB: [00:20:00] I have been, you know.

Speaker4: [00:20:01] Hanging out, of course, hanging.

CCB: [00:20:03] Exactly. However it does. You know, we've got a colleague, Chris Good, who's been working on the concept of propinquity and the the connection, the proximity, what happens when people are together. And when people are together all the time, you know, they they develop relationships. But when people are together in certain types of situations, there is a different kind of potentially stronger, you know, bonding that takes place by virtue of some of the challenge, so that was kind of an interesting, um, aspect of what was going on out in your fieldwork.

Charles Fadem: [00:20:37] Mhm. Yeah. When you're even just experiencing a cool breeze together on a hot day, that is a bonding experience that a commercial office robs you of. Just thinking of that as one of those, those things. It's the simplest thing that the natural environment brings us together in an innate way that commercial offices may not be able to.

CCB: [00:20:58] So I want to jump in here and ask the question about if we go back to kind of the productivity, and you chose certain tasks to be able to test, to see, you know, with the tools that are and technologies that are available for you, to you today, how successful could you be in the different settings and what was there like a ranking of these things are really easy and these things are way difficult. Or was that contingent upon the site, the location?

Charles Fadem: [00:21:28] Yeah. It turned out that choosing the location was three quarters of the challenge. You know, our very first trip, it was trial and error with all of our tech. How do we set things up? How do we get there? How far away from the bathroom can we be? But that was that was the hint, right there, was how far from infrastructure can you really be? And then how close to the wilderness environment can you really be? And we found that there was a sweet spot in the middle that we nicknamed the Goldilocks Zone, which is based off of a astronomy term for the zone in which the Earth can exist in its distance from a sun. Any planet a certain distance from its sun, the proportion of the size of that star can support life and water and gravity and all the things that you need. And it's the same with the siting of an Ecotonal office. You need to be a certain distance away from seeing cars and trucks and hearing people and noise. And at the same time, you know, right in the, you know, ankle deep in a river isn't where you want to be either. Or directly under a large tree with branches that might fall on you isn’t necessarily where you want to be. And so we had a few diagrams that we eventually created based on our trial and error, of getting to the fringes of Wi-Fi coverage, getting to the fringes of, you know, fully rugged space that was just far enough away from a bathroom that you'd be able to walk there real quick. Uh, there's a bunch of different factors, but again, picking a site extremely, extremely important.

Lisa Bambach: [00:23:02] And in related to specific tasks, the one that was the most challenging was projecting. Because a workday takes place during the day, you're exposed to sunlight. So, we experimented a lot with the type of sunshade that we needed. And also thinking about like, you know, is the sunshade something that can be a dual rain protection? So, in our final design, we're assuming that it would have a sunshade component, to block the light enough that you could project or have a digital screen that you could view your information on in order to have that collaboration with your team outside. But other than that, I think we were able to, at most locations, do the video chats. We were able to connect to email. So, the connection wasn't really a problem because 5G service was readily available in most of the locations we went. We ended up finding that we kept picking spot like right on the fringes and would kind of have to scoot a little bit back into the.

CCB: [00:24:00] Liminal zone of haha. Okay, so what was the biggest Aha?

Charles Fadem: [00:24:09] I think we both had different aha moments. For me it was our second trip when we went to Rainier. So, like I said earlier, our first trip was a trial by fire in many ways, literally a trial by fire. And uh, you know, on our second trip, we went to Paradise, which is a location very near to the peak of Mount Rainier here in Washington and the weather was perfect. We found kind of a great site. We already knew how to set things up to some degree. And so we got everything set up and we started doing our tasks. And I didn't feel any of the exhaustion that I felt in our first trip. And, uh, even though I was concentrating and feeling fully engaged, I kept feeling as if I was plugged in, as if my battery was just constantly recharging while I was working. And it's one thing to think all of these things. Oh yeah, being outside's going to recharge you even if you're doing all these tasks and the natural environment is so good for you, and it's where you come from. And that sounds great in theory. But after our first trip, I was like, oh geez, is this is the world just trying to trying to kill me here? Is this is this even a good idea? And then halfway through that second trip, all of a sudden I was like, this, this really is incredible. It is incredible to feel both extremely engaged and productive and absolutely brimming with energy because you are close to the mountain and that sense of awe, you are close to the sun, you can feel the breeze on your face. You're with people that you like and respect, and it's this incredible experience. And I was like, I think we really on to something here.

Speaker4: [00:25:47] Yeah. And I think.

Lisa Bambach: [00:25:48] Yeah, and I think for me, I was surprised most by just my own ability to deal with, like the environmental stressors. And recognizing that they didn't actually cause as much discomfort as I thought they would. You know, when you're doing your work in an office, you're completely protected from the elements. And here we are intentionally having no walls, you know, nothing to keep us, the bees, away from our faces. We're eating lunch kind of thing. So, I was really kind of surprised in that sense of like, oh, if I just give myself the ability to adapt my space, then I am much more tolerant of being uncomfortable, than I would be if I was in a building. So, I think in that we really wanted the design solution our conceptual design that we came up with, to have that ability to have autonomy for the person to really adjust like, how much sun do I want to be exposed to today? Like, where do I truly want to place my seat? What view do I want to have? And it really empowers, I think the worker ,as they go outside to create their own wellness experience that's personal to them.

CCB: [00:26:51] I think that's a great lead in to the reminder that everyone's going to want to go look at your research, because that's where you get to look at the the conceptual design that that Charles and Lisa and the IA team came up with. And it really is very interesting. I mean, I was not not that I was surprised, but I was I was surprised that I was as interested in it. After reading all of the, you know, the the research to get up to that point and then just seeing what what came to you as a result of all of the reflections and assumptions, you know, and the experiences that you had. And how did you go out about, you know, that design kind of. Yeah. No, I get it. But I kind of there are things there are elements to it which are very unique.

Charles Fadem: [00:27:39] Part of it was looking at the four plans that we ended up with. We went on four trips, four different locations. And each time got a little bit better at figuring out where intuitively our individual pieces of equipment needed to be. We had chairs, we had benches, we had tables, we had a whiteboard, we had umbrellas and it was none of these things were connected. And depending on the site, the the type of ground we were on, the angle of the sun, things needed to be in a different place. And as the plans evolve and you can see this in the deck, things become more condensed, and the sequence of things and the adjacencies of the equipment became more intuitive to us, having done all four trips. And so by the time we were finished and looking at all the plans together, what piece of technology needed to be against what piece of equipment, how they all needed to move to react to the natural environment, all started to become intuitive. So, we had almost a skeleton or a spine of some of the things we were going to need to duct tape together in our design. And then the other challenge on the other side of it is how to make that elegant. That wasn't something we were focusing on during our trips. We were just like, doesn't matter what it looks like, just make it work. And now all of a sudden it's like, how do we make this both functional and beautiful so that someone would want to see it, acquire it, put it together, return to it. Just like our modern commercial office needs to be very beautiful, the natural environment is fantastic, but if the armature isn't beautiful itself, people aren't going to want to use it and it's not going to be a well environment either.

Lisa Bambach: [00:29:16] I think that other factors you need to schlep it out into the. Yeah.

CCB: [00:29:19] So it is beautiful and it is so intuitive. I mean, I thought that was really that you were very successful in that. I also was just struck by the thought that a friend of mine was just in Africa doing safari work, you know, adventures. And they took the environment that people expect for hospitality, high end hospitality and plop it down, you know, into those natural places, which is so at odds, you know.

Charles Fadem: [00:29:50] Yeah. Mhmmmm we knew from the very beginning we didn't want to create a building and we didn't want to make a tent. Uh that to us sort of defeats the purpose. And that's the instinct really because buildings do a lot for us and tents do a lot for us. But it blocks out all of the information we need to feel that sense of recharging while we're working. And that really that really was the crux of the design challenge.

CCB: [00:30:14] Okay, so where does this go next?

Charles Fadem: [00:30:17] It's, uh, it's an exciting moment. Uh, you know, the design process led us to this form. And you can see it in our deck, and it's all very conceptual. Some of the things we have enough knowledge. We're not product designers, uh, we were we're both architectural designers. You're Lisa, you’re an environmental designer, our artist. And so we are sort of working with limited product design information. So some of these things are very well developed. The form itself, some of the things like the joints, the way in which technology is integrated isn't as well developed. So we are looking into potential partnerships external to interior architects. We're also talking inside the company itself as to the way in which we want to leverage, not just the product itself, which is a possible thing that we could prototype or produce, but the lessons learned from it and how we can inform commercial office design to be more well outside the traditional narrative that really falls into that harm reduction category. So we created a wellness room or oh, we added some plants into this area. So the box is checked. And I think this helps us all to invert the thinking and start off, well, what if we got rid of our office for a minute? What if we had to add things back? What's the minimal amount of things and technology we'd need to really do our jobs? And then shouldn't the rest be what we need to feel? Well, and maybe you don't need a giant building. Maybe you don't need desks. Maybe you don't even need chairs. Not that these are bad things that shouldn't be in offices. of course they should. But the assumption, because that's what everybody thinks of when they think of a workplace, is that humans actually need that. When in reality, in many cases, it's the technology that needs it, not the humans.

CCB: [00:32:15] Okay, you all Charles and Lisa and boy oh boy, the Ecotonal office have just blown us away with. I am delighted to challenge all of our listeners to go look up the slide deck of the project and learn more about it. And I want to say thank you very, very much. And you also have like the opportunity for one last word. If there's one thing we didn't talk about, if there's one thing that you really think everybody should hear, Charles or Lisa, what would you say?

Lisa Bambach: [00:32:46] I think really, for me, this project revealed kind of the need that we have to design in harmony with our ecosystem versus enclosing ourselves off from it. Or creating kind of these symbolic supplementary replacements of nature. And I think being exposed to the variables in the environment and the natural world is really important for our wellbeing just naturally as humans. So, it was really exciting to do all this research and find all this like academic data about it from psychology and from other fields like urban planning and education, and really pull it into our work as workplace designers.

Charles Fadem: [00:33:31] Hmhmm And for me, uh, you know, from a technological perspective, technology as it gets more sophisticated is disappearing. And it's untethering us in a way that we've never been untethered before. Cords are going away, everything's getting light and mobile. This is a really exciting time and an incredible opportunity, not just for architects and designers, but for our clients and companies to rethink what their physical space needs to be, what it should be, and an opportunity to to flip the priority and make people the number one thing that we are designing for and leave the technology to support us, not the other way around.

CCB: [00:34:10] Which is exactly what we asked in our ONEder Grant theme for 2023. So I'm going to give you an A plus. Of course I'm not. I'm not only, uh, you know, person who gives the grades. However. Thank you so very much for sharing all of your research. And again, go look at it folks. You can also listen to all the ONEder podcasts on any of the streaming services, and we will look forward to talking to you again sometime soon. Thanks so much.

Lisa Bambach: [00:34:36] Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Charles Fadem: [00:34:37] Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.